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09-25-2010, 08:39 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by emr Quote
Certainly not too bad. However, ten times that may be a bit worse.

"My" store lists it at 11999.90 .
Too many zeros. My fingers got lazy...

09-25-2010, 09:12 AM   #17
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At the Photokina I spook to someone from Pentax about numbers. He said to have the goal to sell 1.000 645D's in 2011. Forgot to ask the second question. I think that is for the Pentax Germany area (Germany, Austria and Schweizz), but could also mean all of Europe. If Pentax France also has a target for 1.000 and the rest of Europa also 1.000 that would make some sence since Pentax's market is small in the other country's.
09-28-2010, 12:54 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Pentax says at the official site about production of 500 camera per months
??????????????????????PENTAX?645D?????PENTAX

It means 12*500=6000 bodies per year.
This was the planned production volume. Pentax had to increase the volume due to the considerable demand....
09-28-2010, 01:48 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
This was the planned production volume. Pentax had to increase the volume due to the considerable demand....
Well no idea if this is true. I read about the 300-500 645D's per month production, but no idea if that changed or even easily is to be changed.

09-28-2010, 02:01 PM   #20
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The initial, published production volume was 500pcs per month. I'm sure they haven't decreased it - but increasing is not out of the question.
09-28-2010, 04:26 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Those production rates were posted when they were only targeting the Asian market. Obviously they have to increase production if they are going to increase the market size.
No, they don't. All they have to do is make 6k of them a year. If they can sell em all and make money at it, why do they need to glut the market?
Don't expect a price drop after initial release either. I expect the release price to pretty much hold. This is not a semi disposable electronic toy.
09-29-2010, 05:20 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Don't expect a price drop after initial release either.
They might drop it if components get cheaper but even then I doubt it. They have no real competitor at this price already. They could have priced it 50% higher and still have success. This is not a high volume camera anyway.
09-29-2010, 03:09 PM   #23
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645D ships in October!

I didn't want to create another thread and wasn't sure where to put it.

So, here you have it:

Pentax just moved its shipment schedule for Europe from Dec/Jan to October this year!

-> Pentax 645D coming to the UK sooner than expected - British Journal of Photography

09-29-2010, 03:55 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
They have no real competitor at this price already. They could have priced it 50% higher and still have success.
This isn't true anymore.

I talked to Hasselblad during Photokina. They just launched the H4D-31 and already have the H4D-40. They agressively position the H4D-31 against the 645D. They definitely decided to fight back! Their sales pitch was: make sure your medium format has central shutter option, a removable viewfinder and just feels right in your hands... Obviously exactly where the H4D differs from a 645D.

The European price for H4D-31 and 645D is (almost) the same! So, already Pentax made the mistake to increase the sales price from about 8900€ in Japan (if you include German VAT -- 850,000 Yen -- street price in Japan is even 750,000 Yen only) to 9900€ in Europe (Germany, VAT included). Then, they lost full 6 months to conquer the all decisive European market. If you want to beat Hasselblad, Leica and PhaseOne, you launch your camera here (EU that is) and beat them on their home territory. To then establish the camera in Japan would have been a given.

Now, all of a sudden, the 645D sees serious competition. At least in EU.

I argued with the Hasselblad rep that their 31MP sensor isn't on par with Pentax 40MP, that it is of an older generation with no microlenses (besides the resolution). He denied and so I don't know. Maybe I confused the 31MP with the 39MP. But he said that the H4D-40 has the identical sensor of the 645D and is 14,000€ "only" (40% more only).

To be fair, the Hasselblad prices don't include VAT. So, we have:

40MP 645D (10k€) vs. 31MP H4D (12k€), or
40MP 645D (10k€) vs. 40MP H4D (17k€)

and I believe, this is the reason why Pentax -- in a move of emergency -- now makes the 645D available here asap which is within the next weeks.

BTW, the Hasselblad rep had a special offer for me (call it 645D special ): If I buy a high end zoom lens worth 4k€ together with the H4D-40, I get a "kit" for 15k€. Which would bring the H4D-40 price about down to that of the 645D ...


Pentax lost the chance to have the equation read:

40MP 645D (9k€) vs. 50MP H4D (24k€) 6 months ago.

This looks like possibly loosing a race which seemed impossible to loose ...


The good side is that 645D prices may drop considerably in Europe soon. If Pentax is serious about this market.

Last edited by falconeye; 09-29-2010 at 04:01 PM.
09-29-2010, 04:30 PM   #25
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If they drop it 8500 Euros Bundled with the converter/adapter for the K-mount would be a meaningful sell. While waiting for the other MF lenses some Pentax users can use their existing lenses (FA/DFA/DA/DA*) to shoot together with 645D.

Also, if they can afford to buy MF cameras they can afford to by the DA* and FA limiteds.
09-29-2010, 04:37 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The good side is that 645D prices may drop considerably in Europe soon. If Pentax is serious about this market.
The point here is that Hasselblad (Mamiya too) has been forced to cut their prices to match the introductory price of the 645D. They probably can't afford to go much cheaper since there is nothing else to subsidise this. i.e. MF digital is their whole game. Pentax, on the other hand, should have more than enough meat in the 645D price to be able to cut it further while the APS-C range keeps the cash flowing. What's more, if Hoya want to be really aggressive, they could cut it very close to break even and attempt to carve a big chunk of the existing market and also sell to people who couldn't previously afford MF digital.

If we were talking about a 645D from Canon or Sony who both have very deep pockets I would expect a price war that would wipe out at least one competitor. I don't know whether Hoya is sufficiently interested in Pentax to take the long view and use the 645D as a loss leader. (I don't expect either Canon, Nikon or Sony to produce MF digital cameras - they will simply increase resolution on their FF cameras and call it close enough).

All of this assumes that Pentax has the ability to raise production to meet the extra demand and I guess that applies to lenses too.
09-29-2010, 05:57 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
This isn't true anymore.

I talked to Hasselblad during Photokina. They just launched the H4D-31 and already have the H4D-40. They agressively position the H4D-31 against the 645D. They definitely decided to fight back! Their sales pitch was: make sure your medium format has central shutter option, a removable viewfinder and just feels right in your hands... Obviously exactly where the H4D differs from a 645D..
If central shutters and removable viewfinders were strong selling points Nikon and Canon would have had them years ago. In fact, when Nikon did have removable finders one in a thousand actually used that feature!
The MF digital is simply DSLR's and have to compete with other DSLR's (mostly FF). The Pentax is a modern DSLR based on arguably the best body out there; the K-7/5. The Hasseblad is antique in comparison and is only 31MP; most will opt for the Nikon D3 instead....
In addition the Pentax is a field camera; the Hasseblad definitely not. The Pentax won't loose single sale to Hasselblad.....
Pentax have already sold more 645D than the whole global MF digital sales last year. Hasseblad have to reduce prices as they have a grossly inferior product. Pentax do not...
09-29-2010, 06:41 PM   #28
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Pl, I am not following your thinking.

First, comparing features that medium format shooters need/want to those SLR shooters need/want is rather inappropriate. With leaf shutters at 1/800s the Hasselblads can do things no SLR can, and this would be important to all sorts of pros trying to stop action with studio lighting. If Pentax suddenly had 1/800s flash sync you can bet people would be jumping up and down with excitement!

So too a comparison of the cropped MF format of the H4D-31 to the smaller D3 sensor would not favour the Nikon for many purposes.

To be clear, Hasseblad has not reduced prices, but rather introduced a new cheaper model. This was bound to happen anyway, IMO, given the economy, but Pentax no doubt pushed them to it.

Oh yeah, the "grossly inferior" Hasseblad works just fine for many professionals... which is all new buyers need to know. They also have their choice of 11 lenses, an extender, tilt-shift adapter and many other accessories. Pentax has one lens so far in their "system", and even if one scrambles for older glass there are several holes.

Hasseblad also has end-to-end digital coding and correction that even takes into account the tilt-shift adapter. Their True Focus technology automatically takes into account distance changes when using focus-recompose. It's not as though these guys aren't innovating!

I am very pleased with the new choice the 645D promises to bring to photographers. But I am not understanding the completely dismissive post directed at a long-time industry success story. Or, as an outsider to this realm, am I missing something?
09-29-2010, 07:09 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
...In addition the Pentax is a field camera; the Hasseblad definitely not.

I have used the hasselblad H2 and H4 in the field and I know plenty of photographers who do, just because something isn't designed for a certain set of conditions won't prevent people from using their cameras under field conditions. Though I'll admit I haven't heard of any photojournalists using any hasselblad equipment in iraq or afghanistan. Which is probably where the Pentax 645D would be ideal for along with Canon 1 series cameras.
09-29-2010, 08:14 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
This isn't true anymore.


This looks like possibly loosing a race which seemed impossible to loose ...


The good side is that 645D prices may drop considerably in Europe soon. If Pentax is serious about this market.
Hasselblad offers new 50 MPdigital back for V-system. V-system has much better lenses than H.

Hasselblad has tilt/shift adapter and a lot of accessories. But...Camera system is not monolithic and the weight higher than 2.2 kg.
And shutter speed till 1/800... It's hard to say that it's filed camera system.
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