interview with Swedish Pentax representant: 645D market and more

**Pål Jensen** · 09-30-2010, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by ManuH

The 645D is already late. If they were very serious about that market they would have released it years ago. In 2008 it seemed very close to release before the Hoya buyout. But they had higher priorities for their bottom line.

They are serious. Thats why it is released now. According to Pentax they wanted to price at near the high-end FF camera that Pentax "lost" customers to. This was possible now. They also made it a field camera which is something the majority of Pentax MF users demand...

falconeye · 09-30-2010, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by ManuH

if the 2500$ figure given by Falk is correct, they could cripple a model to be sold around 5000-6000$.

Not necessarily.

Pentax needs to earn as well, and 50% is the margin they need on such a low volume product. Minimum. A film body was $2000 ($1000 to make?). So, sensor, electronics and body may be $4000 to make. Or $8000 to sell. The current Japanese street price is $9000. But of course, manufacturing prices (sensor included) may be lower. Just don't ignore the high margins a low volume market requires. Why do you think Blads used to be that expensive...

**Pål Jensen** · 09-30-2010, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by Asahiflex

I wish them much luck selling their 'Blad. They definitely cater to different people; if I were looking for a 645D then a Hasselblad would not be an option for me. Have you seen the H4D lens prices?.

Lens prices aside, I think 95% of all 645D buyers won't even think about considering a Hasselblad. They want a modern camera with astounding image quality. Apart from this they will demand the same of the camera as they will from a Nikon or a Canon...

RonHendriks1966 · 09-30-2010, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

And even 6000/y at 700k yen (street price is 750k yen) are 50 M$ turnover which is what a 150 people machine engineering company in Germany would be.

So, we have/y:

Phone cameras: 500,000,000
P&S cameras: 100,000,000
APS SLR cameras: 10,000,000
FF SLR cameras: 700,000 (my guess)
MF SLR cameras: 20,000 (or less)

Any Idea how the numbers run on sales for K-x and K-7? And howmuch profit a K-x brings to Hoya?

I think a K-x brings some 10-20 $ profit a peace and a 645D would likely scoor at least $ 1000 for Hoya. So those plant 3600-6000 645D's for sale in 2011 would make up a large amount of the possible revenue from Pentax to Hoya.

To my guess 2010 was the introduction year for 645D and 2011 should be a full production/sales year. Making a product like 645D can be a uge succes, butt only to be messured after some years. When sales in total hit 15.000+ items most likely all R&D would be evened.

Tommy · 09-30-2010, 01:54 PM

I'm glad he corrects himself immediately when he talks about the K-5 in that video....
....saying "switched to a Sony mount" sure sounded bad ;-)

/Tommy

**rparmar** · 09-30-2010, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by gazonk

Huh? They have both of the first two lenses! That's the strength of the 645D - most of the lenses are still in production (and have been for sale in Japan all these years).

Sorry, but these lenses are not in production and have not been for some time. Please tell me where I can buy a 645 35mm in Ireland. Or anywhere in Europe.

Pentax have only one lens in production for the 645D. And that will kill them dead.

**robbiec** · 09-30-2010, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by rparmar

Sorry, but these lenses are not in production and have not been for some time. Please tell me where I can buy a 645 35mm in Ireland. Or anywhere in Europe.

Pentax have only one lens in production for the 645D. And that will kill them dead.

You can hardly buy a Pentax APS-C in Ireland yet alone a 645 or its lenses

Pulling your leg of course, i'm sure if you asked nicely Pentax would organise some FA 645 lenses in Europe for serious buyers.

**rparmar** · 09-30-2010, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by robbiec

You can hardly buy a Pentax APS-C in Ireland yet alone a 645 or its lenses

Of course we know this being experts on the matter. But we can hardly expect anyone else to follow along now can we.

**robbiec** · 09-30-2010, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by rparmar

Of course we know this being experts on the matter. But we can hardly expect anyone else to follow along now can we.

Ireland... the land Pentax forgot!

**rparmar** · 10-01-2010, 06:16 AM

Argos now carries the K-x kit in Ireland. Shocked I was! Thankfully I had a warranty trade-in I had to make good on, so I paid the difference and upgraded.

gazonk · 10-01-2010, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by rparmar

Sorry, but these lenses are not in production and have not been for some time. Please tell me where I can buy a 645 35mm in Ireland. Or anywhere in Europe.

Pentax have only one lens in production for the 645D. And that will kill them dead.

The fact that you can't get them in Europe hardly proves anything. They've been on sale continuously in Japan (13 FA645 lenses and two TCs are available on shop.pentax.jp) and are actively being used in marketing the 645D (see the catalog (large pdf)). I don't think they would have done that if they were just selling surplus stock - it's pretty obvious that if production was ever stopped at all, it has started again in Vietnam by now. And I think it's pretty obvious that they have to start importing a number of them to Europe again when the 645D is launched.

RonHendriks1966 · 10-01-2010, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by gazonk

The fact that you can't get them in Europe hardly proves anything. They've been on sale continuously in Japan (13 FA645 lenses and two TCs are available on shop.pentax.jp) and are actively being used in marketing the 645D (see the catalog (large pdf)). I don't think they would have done that if they were just selling surplus stock - it's pretty obvious that if production was ever stopped at all, it has started again in Vietnam by now. And I think it's pretty obvious that they have to start importing a number of them to Europe again when the 645D is launched.

I have a FA645 75mm/f2.8 lens that is assembled in Vietnam, so in the latest years production is being done in Vietnam.

**rparmar** · 10-01-2010, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by gazonk

The fact that you can't get them in Europe hardly proves anything.

Er, it does prove that they are not available here, which is the only thing I was trying to say.

Originally posted by gazonk

And I think it's pretty obvious that they have to start importing a number of them to Europe again when the 645D is launched.

Well, when they do I will adjust my facts to correspond to the availability of the lenses.

In any case Pentax has stated they need to update the old lens line for digital. The fact that only the kit lens is currently available in a contemporary formula means that they do, in fact, have a lot of work to do to catch up with Hasselblad. (Mamiya too, I believe, has old lenses they are slowly replacing.)

gazonk · 10-01-2010, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by rparmar

Er, it does prove that they are not available here, which is the only thing I was trying to say.

No, you actually said "Sorry, but these lenses are not in production and have not been for some time. ", and that's close to spreading FUD, IMHO.

Quote:

In any case Pentax has stated they need to update the old lens line for digital.

Sure, but at least some users are very happy with the old versions on the 645D. "These were both shot with the 645 35mm lens, an extremely impressive piece of glass." says Chris Willson.

**rparmar** · 10-01-2010, 09:54 AM

"Fear Uncertainty Doubt" huh? You see all that in my statement? I think that's more than a little over the top.

Let's try this a different way. I decide to move my career up a notch and dedicate myself to full-time photography for magazines that require full-page hi res images. I look at the available MF systems that might help me accomplish this. Oh, and I live in Dublin. Or Paris. Or Berlin. Anywhere in the 99% of the world that is not Japan. To be even clearer, I live somewhere in Europe, since is that is the territory the current announcement is all about. Moving to Tokyo to further my career is not an option.

I want to start with a pretty basic three-lens setup (wide, normal, tele) and tilt/shift. How do you think Pentax is in consideration?

It is not appropriate to quote from photographers who are located in Japan. Neither is it appropriate to reference old glass that is available for sale a couple times a year for a few moments (hours if you are lucky), and which fetches increasingly stratospheric prices.

No FUD here, sorry. Just facts. I would love to see Pentax compete. I have written rather glowingly on the 645D. I own a 645N and know how good the old lenses are. But assembling a system from old bits and bobs just doesn't even begin to cut the mustard against what the competition offers.

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09-30-2010, 10:10 AM	#46
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by ManuH The 645D is already late. If they were very serious about that market they would have released it years ago. In 2008 it seemed very close to release before the Hoya buyout. But they had higher priorities for their bottom line. They are serious. Thats why it is released now. According to Pentax they wanted to price at near the high-end FF camera that Pentax "lost" customers to. This was possible now. They also made it a field camera which is something the majority of Pentax MF users demand...

09-30-2010, 10:15 AM	#47
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by ManuH if the 2500$ figure given by Falk is correct, they could cripple a model to be sold around 5000-6000$. Not necessarily. Pentax needs to earn as well, and 50% is the margin they need on such a low volume product. Minimum. A film body was $2000 ($1000 to make?). So, sensor, electronics and body may be $4000 to make. Or $8000 to sell. The current Japanese street price is $9000. But of course, manufacturing prices (sensor included) may be lower. Just don't ignore the high margins a low volume market requires. Why do you think Blads used to be that expensive...

09-30-2010, 10:23 AM	#48
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by Asahiflex I wish them much luck selling their 'Blad. They definitely cater to different people; if I were looking for a 645D then a Hasselblad would not be an option for me. Have you seen the H4D lens prices?. Lens prices aside, I think 95% of all 645D buyers won't even think about considering a Hasselblad. They want a modern camera with astounding image quality. Apart from this they will demand the same of the camera as they will from a Nikon or a Canon...

09-30-2010, 10:26 AM	#49
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by falconeye And even 6000/y at 700k yen (street price is 750k yen) are 50 M$ turnover which is what a 150 people machine engineering company in Germany would be. So, we have/y: Phone cameras: 500,000,000 P&S cameras: 100,000,000 APS SLR cameras: 10,000,000 FF SLR cameras: 700,000 (my guess) MF SLR cameras: 20,000 (or less) Any Idea how the numbers run on sales for K-x and K-7? And howmuch profit a K-x brings to Hoya? I think a K-x brings some 10-20 $ profit a peace and a 645D would likely scoor at least $ 1000 for Hoya. So those plant 3600-6000 645D's for sale in 2011 would make up a large amount of the possible revenue from Pentax to Hoya. To my guess 2010 was the introduction year for 645D and 2011 should be a full production/sales year. Making a product like 645D can be a uge succes, butt only to be messured after some years. When sales in total hit 15.000+ items most likely all R&D would be evened.

09-30-2010, 01:54 PM	#50
Tommy Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 195	I'm glad he corrects himself immediately when he talks about the K-5 in that video.... ....saying "switched to a Sony mount" sure sounded bad ;-) /Tommy

09-30-2010, 04:26 PM	#51
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,819	Originally posted by gazonk Huh? They have both of the first two lenses! That's the strength of the 645D - most of the lenses are still in production (and have been for sale in Japan all these years). Sorry, but these lenses are not in production and have not been for some time. Please tell me where I can buy a 645 35mm in Ireland. Or anywhere in Europe. Pentax have only one lens in production for the 645D. And that will kill them dead.

09-30-2010, 04:31 PM	#52
robbiec Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Cork Photos: Albums Posts: 1,882	Originally posted by rparmar Sorry, but these lenses are not in production and have not been for some time. Please tell me where I can buy a 645 35mm in Ireland. Or anywhere in Europe. Pentax have only one lens in production for the 645D. And that will kill them dead. You can hardly buy a Pentax APS-C in Ireland yet alone a 645 or its lenses Pulling your leg of course, i'm sure if you asked nicely Pentax would organise some FA 645 lenses in Europe for serious buyers.

09-30-2010, 05:14 PM	#53
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,819	Originally posted by robbiec You can hardly buy a Pentax APS-C in Ireland yet alone a 645 or its lenses Of course we know this being experts on the matter. But we can hardly expect anyone else to follow along now can we.

09-30-2010, 05:42 PM	#54
robbiec Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Cork Photos: Albums Posts: 1,882	Originally posted by rparmar Of course we know this being experts on the matter. But we can hardly expect anyone else to follow along now can we. Ireland... the land Pentax forgot!

10-01-2010, 06:16 AM	#55
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,819	Argos now carries the K-x kit in Ireland. Shocked I was! Thankfully I had a warranty trade-in I had to make good on, so I paid the difference and upgraded.

10-01-2010, 06:51 AM	#56
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by rparmar Sorry, but these lenses are not in production and have not been for some time. Please tell me where I can buy a 645 35mm in Ireland. Or anywhere in Europe. Pentax have only one lens in production for the 645D. And that will kill them dead. The fact that you can't get them in Europe hardly proves anything. They've been on sale continuously in Japan (13 FA645 lenses and two TCs are available on shop.pentax.jp) and are actively being used in marketing the 645D (see the catalog (large pdf)). I don't think they would have done that if they were just selling surplus stock - it's pretty obvious that if production was ever stopped at all, it has started again in Vietnam by now. And I think it's pretty obvious that they have to start importing a number of them to Europe again when the 645D is launched.

10-01-2010, 09:14 AM	#57
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by gazonk The fact that you can't get them in Europe hardly proves anything. They've been on sale continuously in Japan (13 FA645 lenses and two TCs are available on shop.pentax.jp) and are actively being used in marketing the 645D (see the catalog (large pdf)). I don't think they would have done that if they were just selling surplus stock - it's pretty obvious that if production was ever stopped at all, it has started again in Vietnam by now. And I think it's pretty obvious that they have to start importing a number of them to Europe again when the 645D is launched. I have a FA645 75mm/f2.8 lens that is assembled in Vietnam, so in the latest years production is being done in Vietnam.

10-01-2010, 09:31 AM	#58
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,819	Originally posted by gazonk The fact that you can't get them in Europe hardly proves anything. Er, it does prove that they are not available here, which is the only thing I was trying to say. Originally posted by gazonk And I think it's pretty obvious that they have to start importing a number of them to Europe again when the 645D is launched. Well, when they do I will adjust my facts to correspond to the availability of the lenses. In any case Pentax has stated they need to update the old lens line for digital. The fact that only the kit lens is currently available in a contemporary formula means that they do, in fact, have a lot of work to do to catch up with Hasselblad. (Mamiya too, I believe, has old lenses they are slowly replacing.)

10-01-2010, 09:38 AM	#59
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by rparmar Er, it does prove that they are not available here, which is the only thing I was trying to say. No, you actually said "Sorry, but these lenses are not in production and have not been for some time. ", and that's close to spreading FUD, IMHO. Quote: In any case Pentax has stated they need to update the old lens line for digital. Sure, but at least some users are very happy with the old versions on the 645D. "These were both shot with the 645 35mm lens, an extremely impressive piece of glass." says Chris Willson.

10-01-2010, 09:54 AM	#60
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,819	"Fear Uncertainty Doubt" huh? You see all that in my statement? I think that's more than a little over the top. Let's try this a different way. I decide to move my career up a notch and dedicate myself to full-time photography for magazines that require full-page hi res images. I look at the available MF systems that might help me accomplish this. Oh, and I live in Dublin. Or Paris. Or Berlin. Anywhere in the 99% of the world that is not Japan. To be even clearer, I live somewhere in Europe, since is that is the territory the current announcement is all about. Moving to Tokyo to further my career is not an option. I want to start with a pretty basic three-lens setup (wide, normal, tele) and tilt/shift. How do you think Pentax is in consideration? It is not appropriate to quote from photographers who are located in Japan. Neither is it appropriate to reference old glass that is available for sale a couple times a year for a few moments (hours if you are lucky), and which fetches increasingly stratospheric prices. No FUD here, sorry. Just facts. I would love to see Pentax compete. I have written rather glowingly on the 645D. I own a 645N and know how good the old lenses are. But assembling a system from old bits and bobs just doesn't even begin to cut the mustard against what the competition offers.