The cheapest way for Pentax to make FF camera

fry · 10-03-2010, 03:41 PM

Gentlemen,

In my opinion, your hype about full format sensors is misguided. The future is APS-C, just like in the film age - newer cameras were smaller not larger. So look who's making the beautiful small DSLR today? Right, Pentax. That's the future.

With the exception of the Leica M9, all full format cameras are HUGE, simply because the mirror swipe needed is related to the sensor size. The price to be paid for “Full format” or “Medium format” is: much bigger and heavier equipment (e.g., Nikon D700, Pentax 645D) or lack of features (e.g., Leica M9 with rangefinder in place of autofocus).

FF only gives you less noise if the pixel size is bigger, and then only for some 3 years, until the next APS-C sensor generation matches that noise level. So FF is just bridging the time until APS-C sensors have the noise level you need, which may be now, with the latest Sony sensor.

Higher resolution? Yes, but with the vast majority of the glass available, the sensors will outperform the lens, so what's the point unless you pay 20k+ for a system? Still, Pentax is there, with the 645D, (which I admire but will never buy, since I want to CARRY my camera not lock it away...)

Lenses like the Pentax Limiteds give you beautiful bokeh in APS-C. For my taste, beautiful enough.

With the new K5 sensor, ISO 3200 is very good, 12800 is acceptable (maybe with post processing) and 51200 available (and for small print formats, using noise reduction post processing, probably ok).

Best, C

Adam · 10-03-2010, 03:50 PM

Pentax already has a full-frame body- the *istD- now it's time to re-release it with a full-frame sensor inside!

ilya80 · 10-03-2010, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by kryss

but rather to your statement "stop dreaming

That was addressed to Ogl, original poster, who still seems to be waiting for FF to happen. I believe there is even a quote. Hence I tell him to stop dreaming - I myself have dreamt for too long ( whilst I could have shooting instead )

Oh well.

Graham67 · 10-03-2010, 03:55 PM

How on Earth does this thread qualify as either news or rumour?

This site needs a dedicated 'FF Whinging' forum. These repeated and endless wishful thinking threads make this site, as a whole, devalued.

ogl · 10-03-2010, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Wow, ogl throwing insults - that's something new. NOT! What's next, calling me a Romanian gypsy?

I don't care who you are...Don't talk with me, please, and it will be enough.

bobmaxja · 10-03-2010, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by Graham67

How on Earth does this thread qualify as either news or rumour?

This site needs a dedicated 'FF Whinging' forum. These repeated and endless wishful thinking threads make this site, as a whole, devalued.

I agree, time to mo

ve and stop dreaming

ogl · 10-03-2010, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by Asahiflex

How right you are...

Crows do not pick crow's eyes :ugh:

P.S.
I have enough money to buy even MF camera. It's not your problems.
To discuss money in another's purse is mauvais ton.

ogl · 10-03-2010, 09:23 PM

To say honest, I think if HOYA ever makes FF camera -
1. it will be FF EVIL with new bayonet
2. or it will be classical FF camera, but with new bayonet too.

K mount won't last at new FF system.

dotchoucou · 10-03-2010, 10:06 PM

lol
After that long, throw away the K...

IMHO, it would be like shooting themselves in the foot.
I will but the next pentax camera because I like the brand AND because I can re-use some of my lenses/flash/remote... If they change the bayonet system it will be easier for the customers to move to another brand.

ogl · 10-03-2010, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by dotchoucou

lol
After that long, throw away the K...

IMHO, it would be like shooting themselves in the foot.
I will but the next pentax camera because I like the brand AND because I can re-use some of my lenses/flash/remote... If they change the bayonet system it will be easier for the customers to move to another brand.

You will see

Kunzite · 10-03-2010, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by ogl

To say honest, I think if HOYA ever makes FF camera -
[...]
2. or it will be classical FF camera, but with new bayonet too.
[...]

Reaching new heights of cluelessness!
Erm... of course Pentax would really like to shoot themselves in the foot, getting rid of all it's customer base without a valid technical reason. Silly me.

Adam, now it's time to re-release an *istD-level camera (but "full frame)?

I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, and so will the rest of the market.
Come on, people - there are no shortcuts, no magic way, no "just use an old body which happens to be available and pop in a new sensor" trick.

ogl · 10-03-2010, 11:04 PM - **1 Like**

Bayonet K is a brake of progress. It's valid technical reason.

We can see now that HOYA develops amateur APS-C system with DA lenses and pro MF system.
FA LIMITED is already NOT MADE IN JAPAN. The days are numbered.
We will see only slow DA and 2 macro (DFA) lenses for APS-C system in the nearest 1-2 years.
DFA and FA line of lenses died. And 90% of FA and FA* died on 2004.

And - remember, the man -
No Pentax. Pentax is just name of brand and photo division of HOYA.

Supernaut · 10-03-2010, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by ogl

To say honest, I think if HOYA ever makes FF camera -
1. it will be FF EVIL with new bayonet
2. or it will be classical FF camera, but with new bayonet too.

K mount won't last at new FF system.

Well, point 1 is possible. #2 is not. A classical FF with mirrorbox would end up with a very similar bayonet (size wise) which is unthinkable imo.

Pentax should put the R&D resources on a FF model and let the aps-c models share the technology afterwards. R&D cost would not rise too much in total and add a FF body.

Also, a FF can be sold with greater margins than a aps-c. I hope none here belives that Nikon D3 and Canon 1D is sold for only development cost + parts price. These are very high margin products!

eurostar · 10-04-2010, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by Supernaut

Also, a FF can be sold with greater margins than a aps-c. I hope none here belives that Nikon D3 and Canon 1D is sold for only development cost + parts price. These are very high margin products!

That's true. Problem is, no one Pentaxian would buy a Pentax D3/Eos1D, they want D700/Eos5D priced less than the Alpha 850... and I fear there is no margin, going there.

kevinschoenmakers · 10-04-2010, 01:53 AM

Please, people, stop dreaming about FF. It's just as likely as Pentax developing a new film camera. Or a new flatscreen TV, for that matter.

10-03-2010, 03:50 PM	#32
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,595	Pentax already has a full-frame body- the istD- now it's time to re-release it with a full-frame sensor inside! Adam* PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

10-03-2010, 08:40 PM	#36
bobmaxja Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Laval, Quebec Canada Posts: 2,171	Originally posted by Graham67 How on Earth does this thread qualify as either news or rumour? This site needs a dedicated 'FF Whinging' forum. These repeated and endless wishful thinking threads make this site, as a whole, devalued. I agree, time to move and stop dreaming

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10-03-2010, 03:41 PM	#31
fry New Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Fulda, Germany Posts: 8	Gentlemen, In my opinion, your hype about full format sensors is misguided. The future is APS-C, just like in the film age - newer cameras were smaller not larger. So look who's making the beautiful small DSLR today? Right, Pentax. That's the future. With the exception of the Leica M9, all full format cameras are HUGE, simply because the mirror swipe needed is related to the sensor size. The price to be paid for “Full format” or “Medium format” is: much bigger and heavier equipment (e.g., Nikon D700, Pentax 645D) or lack of features (e.g., Leica M9 with rangefinder in place of autofocus). FF only gives you less noise if the pixel size is bigger, and then only for some 3 years, until the next APS-C sensor generation matches that noise level. So FF is just bridging the time until APS-C sensors have the noise level you need, which may be now, with the latest Sony sensor. Higher resolution? Yes, but with the vast majority of the glass available, the sensors will outperform the lens, so what's the point unless you pay 20k+ for a system? Still, Pentax is there, with the 645D, (which I admire but will never buy, since I want to CARRY my camera not lock it away...) Lenses like the Pentax Limiteds give you beautiful bokeh in APS-C. For my taste, beautiful enough. With the new K5 sensor, ISO 3200 is very good, 12800 is acceptable (maybe with post processing) and 51200 available (and for small print formats, using noise reduction post processing, probably ok). Best, C

10-03-2010, 03:51 PM	#33
ilya80 Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia Photos: Albums Posts: 410	Originally posted by kryss but rather to your statement "stop dreaming That was addressed to Ogl, original poster, who still seems to be waiting for FF to happen. I believe there is even a quote. Hence I tell him to stop dreaming - I myself have dreamt for too long ( whilst I could have shooting instead ) Oh well.

10-03-2010, 03:55 PM	#34
Graham67 Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Leicester, England Photos: Gallery Posts: 89	How on Earth does this thread qualify as either news or rumour? This site needs a dedicated 'FF Whinging' forum. These repeated and endless wishful thinking threads make this site, as a whole, devalued.

10-03-2010, 08:38 PM	#35
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382 Original Poster	Originally posted by Kunzite Wow, ogl throwing insults - that's something new. NOT! What's next, calling me a Romanian gypsy? I don't care who you are...Don't talk with me, please, and it will be enough.

10-03-2010, 08:52 PM	#37
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382 Original Poster	Originally posted by Asahiflex How right you are... Crows do not pick crow's eyes :ugh: P.S. I have enough money to buy even MF camera. It's not your problems. To discuss money in another's purse is mauvais ton.

10-03-2010, 09:23 PM	#38
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382 Original Poster	To say honest, I think if HOYA ever makes FF camera - 1. it will be FF EVIL with new bayonet 2. or it will be classical FF camera, but with new bayonet too. K mount won't last at new FF system.

10-03-2010, 10:06 PM	#39
dotchoucou Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Marseille Photos: Gallery Posts: 26	lol After that long, throw away the K... IMHO, it would be like shooting themselves in the foot. I will but the next pentax camera because I like the brand AND because I can re-use some of my lenses/flash/remote... If they change the bayonet system it will be easier for the customers to move to another brand.

10-03-2010, 10:47 PM	#40
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382 Original Poster	Originally posted by dotchoucou lol After that long, throw away the K... IMHO, it would be like shooting themselves in the foot. I will but the next pentax camera because I like the brand AND because I can re-use some of my lenses/flash/remote... If they change the bayonet system it will be easier for the customers to move to another brand. You will see

10-03-2010, 10:51 PM	#41
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by ogl To say honest, I think if HOYA ever makes FF camera - [...] 2. or it will be classical FF camera, but with new bayonet too. [...] Reaching new heights of cluelessness! Erm... of course Pentax would really like to shoot themselves in the foot, getting rid of all it's customer base without a valid technical reason. Silly me. Adam, now it's time to re-release an *istD-level camera (but "full frame)? I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, and so will the rest of the market. Come on, people - there are no shortcuts, no magic way, no "just use an old body which happens to be available and pop in a new sensor" trick.

10-03-2010, 11:04 PM - 1 Like	#42
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382 Original Poster	Bayonet K is a brake of progress. It's valid technical reason. We can see now that HOYA develops amateur APS-C system with DA lenses and pro MF system. FA LIMITED is already NOT MADE IN JAPAN. The days are numbered. We will see only slow DA and 2 macro (DFA) lenses for APS-C system in the nearest 1-2 years. DFA and FA line of lenses died. And 90% of FA and FA* died on 2004. And - remember, the man - No Pentax. Pentax is just name of brand and photo division of HOYA.

10-03-2010, 11:45 PM	#43
Supernaut Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: West Coast , Sweden Posts: 467	Originally posted by ogl To say honest, I think if HOYA ever makes FF camera - 1. it will be FF EVIL with new bayonet 2. or it will be classical FF camera, but with new bayonet too. K mount won't last at new FF system. Well, point 1 is possible. #2 is not. A classical FF with mirrorbox would end up with a very similar bayonet (size wise) which is unthinkable imo. Pentax should put the R&D resources on a FF model and let the aps-c models share the technology afterwards. R&D cost would not rise too much in total and add a FF body. Also, a FF can be sold with greater margins than a aps-c. I hope none here belives that Nikon D3 and Canon 1D is sold for only development cost + parts price. These are very high margin products!

10-04-2010, 12:57 AM	#44
eurostar Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Albareto, Italy Photos: Gallery Posts: 819	Originally posted by Supernaut Also, a FF can be sold with greater margins than a aps-c. I hope none here belives that Nikon D3 and Canon 1D is sold for only development cost + parts price. These are very high margin products! That's true. Problem is, no one Pentaxian would buy a Pentax D3/Eos1D, they want D700/Eos5D priced less than the Alpha 850... and I fear there is no margin, going there.

10-04-2010, 01:53 AM	#45
kevinschoenmakers Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Shanghai Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,509	Please, people, stop dreaming about FF. It's just as likely as Pentax developing a new film camera. Or a new flatscreen TV, for that matter.