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View Poll Results: What do "we" want?
Flip Screen 14923.03%
more FPS 548.35%
bigger Buffer 20331.38%
manuel Video controls 17026.28%
tethering 17226.58%
Full-Format 26240.49%
tracking AF 33251.31%
more AF-Fields 14923.03%
open-source OS/Plattform 8613.29%
Lenses >300mm in WR 13320.56%
Lens Roadmap 22935.39%
1/250th sync speed 19329.83%
150-200mm macro 6510.05%
DA*400/f4 11818.24%
Dual SDXC-Slots 14923.03%
P-TTL II with radio 10516.23%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 647. You may not vote on this poll

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04-09-2011, 09:58 PM   #136
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I am excited about video. But my prediction for the next camera is:::::

1. Same sensor as the K-5
2. advances in video. controls and very friendly layout.
3. Maybe a tilt screen. But i do not think so.
4. AF fixed.???? I think it will not be fixed until a new model is out.
5. Maybe a larger buffer. Or memory and new chip set for processing.
5. That's all folks.

Pentax is a outsourced camera I think anyway. Very little is going into the engineering.
If i had to guess even the AF is a module plugged into the software. Third party engineering that will be addressed with the next unit.
I just home is goes well for my sake..

Also big lenses make a definate commentment to a product with a huge outlay. This will not happen with Pentax now. And in my opinion maybe never again. Hope I am wrong. It will save me big if I am. Pentax is just watching the clock so to speek.

I do not want to buy new lenses now... The stock market is reet now. And i want to thank everyone who sold and drove the market down a couple of years ago.... THANK YOU.. Two later i now have enough to buy a complete new camera system and lenses if i want... free
But if i have to i will...
come on Pentax.... give it up for your customers..


Last edited by garyk; 04-09-2011 at 10:13 PM.
04-11-2011, 06:01 PM   #137
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C'mon

I want more sunlight at dawn and dusk and birds that fly more slowly.
C'mon Pentax, how hard can it be?
04-12-2011, 12:44 AM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
Pentax 645D is your answer. It's bigger than FF

As a rule of thumb don't expect that your film lenses to be as good on 35mm digital as they were on film. It is true for Canon, Nikon and Leica, there is no reason for it not to be true if Pentax ever produce such a camera.
The 645D might be bigger than 35mm FF, but it's cropped compared to 6 x 4.5cm Medium Format. Can't we get anything full sized? Anyway it's about five times what we would want to pay for a FF DSLR. There'll be a spot in the market when Sony replaces the A900 because Sony won't be replacing the A850. So please Pentax, fill that spot and use that new Sony sensor with a real glass viewfinder.
04-12-2011, 05:01 AM - 1 Like   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by markac Quote
The 645D might be bigger than 35mm FF, but it's cropped compared to 6 x 4.5cm Medium Format. Can't we get anything full sized? Anyway it's about five times what we would want to pay for a FF DSLR. There'll be a spot in the market when Sony replaces the A900 because Sony won't be replacing the A850. So please Pentax, fill that spot and use that new Sony sensor with a real glass viewfinder.
I do not want to repeat what have been said in other threads but current concensus is that Sony is loosing money on their FF and Canon and Nikon not making much on the 5MkII and the D700 respectively.

If the FF market is 10% of APSC market, what are the sale figures that Pentax may gather by launching a FF, Pentax is just about 6-7% of APSC DSLR market worldwide.

So this is for the business part of thing.

Regarding the 645D, I invite anybody to have a stroll on the MF forum on this site. Nearly all user are very experienced photographer, and none of them are complaining about the crop ratio, only some are worried on what the performance of the lenses would be on a full 645 sensor. At the moment, the only full 645 back on the market are extremely expensive, launching such a camera would have contradict Pentax market positionning which was an affordable MF camera sold in high volumes (and with a DSLR layout which is unique to the market)

IMO, we shall keep the sense of perspective, I mainly shooting 35mm film at the moment, but when I need resolution and quality, I shoot with my K20D, a 3 year old APSC camera. The paradigm 35mm / MF / LF have been replaced by APSC / FF / MF mostly, there are pros out there shooting with Canon 7D and Nikon D300s and perfectly happy with it. The film MF crowd had moved to the FF camera of the likes of 5DmkII and Nikon D3x and now moving back to MF via Pentax or Leica.

For the last few years, Pentax has made quite a few great moves in order to regain recognition but the market that addresses FF at the moment was occupied by the likes of Nikon Fs in the film day, at that time Pentax did not address this market, its last attemps was the Pentax LX launched in the early 80s.

At the moment, I would rather see Pentax bringing new great APSC advanced cameras, and keep developping their 645D lineup, as one day I may be able/tempted to buy one, new or used. FF is not a natural evolution for Pentax, how many users would be pissed if they can't mount their DA21 or DA15 on their new Pentax DSLR? (kidding on this one, because most owners would know the difference betwenn APSC and FF)

04-12-2011, 11:16 AM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
I do not want to repeat what have been said in other threads but current concensus is that Sony is loosing money on their FF and Canon and Nikon not making much on the 5MkII and the D700 respectively.

If the FF market is 10% of APSC market, what are the sale figures that Pentax may gather by launching a FF, Pentax is just about 6-7% of APSC DSLR market worldwide.

So this is for the business part of thing.
I don't know the answer, but the problem is like a pink elephant in the room, everyone can see it, but we pretend like it's not there.

And why should we be concerned about a 1.5 crop factor, it makes our teles perform even better, right? A modest 70-200 suddenly gains the pulling power of a Mack truck when it's attached to an APS-C body. And let's not forget that we can all become the next Kurosawa without buying expensive video equipment, or going to film school. And for those days when the compulsion to dump a bottle of water all over my camera hits me, I'm glad I have my Pentax.

The problem is when I want to do something creative with perspective, I'm a sad panda Think about this: the kit lens that came with my K20d is an 18-55. An 18mm on my old K-X(film) was fairly wide, and I could capture the world in whatever way I saw fit. An 18mm on a APS-C functions like a 27mm on a full frame camera; wide enough to get the whole family in a shot, but not wide enough to capture the essence of a vast, expansive landscape. I would need a 12mm lens to get the equivalent of 18mm on a FF, and in truth, I'd like a bit more FoV than that.

Canon and Nikon users have a choice, but I'm a Pentax user, and have been since the days of film. Maybe newcomers to photography don't notice the loss of perspective with an APS-C, but I do. So what are my options? Live with it, change systems, or buy expensive lenses to compensate for my camera. Right now I'm looking at the Sigma 8-16, it's an interesting lens, but I'd rather spend that money on a FF Pentax body so that all my old lenses would work as well.

If Pentax were to introduce a full frame body, true, the current DA lenses would not fill the entire sensor, BUT, where Pentax got it right is all the old film lenses would still work. The system is already complete, no engineering required. Slap some weather seals and some digital anti flare coating on an old FA design, and repackage it for an even better lens. They don't even have to worry about image stabilization. I'm sure Pentax could include a virtual crop factor that ignores the outer edges of the sensor so the DA lenses could still be used.

I understand that there has to be a market for a full fame camera to be successful, but the same was true of medium format. Pentax took a huge risk in developing the 645D and it has won critical acclaim. The K-5 is stealing Nikon and Canon users away every day, and new photographers are entering the market with little or nothing invested in a particular system. Much of the notoriety that was once lost has been regained; It is time. Pentax is very good at developing attractively priced alternatives to the "Big Two" with similar, and sometimes better features. Give me full frame at 14+mp and under $4000, and my check will be in the mail tomorrow.
04-13-2011, 01:35 AM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by maxfield_photo Quote
Give me full frame at 14+mp and under $4000, and my check will be in the mail tomorrow.
Mine too, I want 31Ltd to be the 31mm.
04-13-2011, 01:50 AM   #142
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Don't forget that a FF camera will be relatively expensive, and a FF system (say a body and 4 lenses, including telephotos) will be heavy to lug about. People are giving up their Canons and Nikons not because of the IQ, but because they don't want to carry a 5DII or a D700 outfit around all day. Pentax, along with Leica's DRF, is the lightest quality system on the market today.

Peter
04-13-2011, 03:18 AM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by maxfield_photo Quote
I don't know the answer, but the problem is like a pink elephant in the room, everyone can see it, but we pretend like it's not there.

The problem is when I want to do something creative with perspective, I'm a sad panda Think about this: the kit lens that came with my K20d is an 18-55. An 18mm on my old K-X(film) was fairly wide, and I could capture the world in whatever way I saw fit. An 18mm on a APS-C functions like a 27mm on a full frame camera; wide enough to get the whole family in a shot, but not wide enough to capture the essence of a vast, expansive landscape. I would need a 12mm lens to get the equivalent of 18mm on a FF, and in truth, I'd like a bit more FoV than that. .
Well a standard lens on FF is 28-70 or 24-70, so there is no difference in FOV here to 16-50 or 18-55. True Pentax do not provide ultrawide lens below 12mm (apart from the Fisheye) but this is a business decision, not technological limitation related to the APSC format.

QuoteOriginally posted by maxfield_photo Quote
Canon and Nikon users have a choice, but I'm a Pentax user, and have been since the days of film. Maybe newcomers to photography don't notice the loss of perspective with an APS-C, but I do. So what are my options? Live with it, change systems, or buy expensive lenses to compensate for my camera. Right now I'm looking at the Sigma 8-16, it's an interesting lens, but I'd rather spend that money on a FF Pentax body so that all my old lenses would work as well..
Actually Canon and Nikon users don't have much choice. To me FF and APSC are 2 systems sharing the same mount, if you upgrade from APSC to FF, you will have to buy a new standard zoom and new wide lenses. The advantages are sharing the mount are starting at 50mm, but here Pentax approached it with rather unique approach translating classic 35mm lens focals into APSC.

The argument saying that old film lenses can be used on FF digital is not very good IMO. Poor performance of existing lenses from wide to standard have conducted Nikon and Canon to review their whole lineup with much bigger lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by maxfield_photo Quote
If Pentax were to introduce a full frame body, true, the current DA lenses would not fill the entire sensor, BUT, where Pentax got it right is all the old film lenses would still work. The system is already complete, no engineering required. Slap some weather seals and some digital anti flare coating on an old FA design, and repackage it for an even better lens. They don't even have to worry about image stabilization. I'm sure Pentax could include a virtual crop factor that ignores the outer edges of the sensor so the DA lenses could still be used..
This is more complicated than it looks, the different lens elements are not custom made for a given lens model, they are taken from the providers catalogs. If Pentax was capable of reissuing old designs, then they would have started again the much sought FA*24, FA*85/1.4, FA*200mm/4Macro, FA*250-600. They would find buyers also with the APSC people.

QuoteOriginally posted by maxfield_photo Quote
I understand that there has to be a market for a full fame camera to be successful, but the same was true of medium format. Pentax took a huge risk in developing the 645D and it has won critical acclaim. The K-5 is stealing Nikon and Canon users away every day, and new photographers are entering the market with little or nothing invested in a particular system. Much of the notoriety that was once lost has been regained; It is time. Pentax is very good at developing attractively priced alternatives to the "Big Two" with similar, and sometimes better features. Give me full frame at 14+mp and under $4000, and my check will be in the mail tomorrow.
At 10 000€ a camera, you need much lower volumes than at 2000€, many of the development costs for the 645D where wrote off when the project was stalled. The only low volume FF camera, I can think of is the Leica M9, and its price is closer to the Pentax 645D than to the Nikon D700.

As much as I like Pentax cameras and lenses, I don't see why I should pay 4000$ for a FF body while I get a D700 or 5DmkII plus lenses for that price and that I can leverage a great exiting base for lens rental and second hand.

For the 645D, Pentax is not a newcomer, the exiting base of lenses with the P67 and P645 used to be the biggest systems in the MF world, when Pentax decided to reenter, they did it with a revolutionary approach in terms of design and pricing. Yet there are still people waiting for Pentax to renew its lens lineup, provide tetering etc... Pentax managed to eat a very significant part of the MF market, apparently mainly by enlarging it at the expense of high end FF DSLR. I barely see that coming for FF DSLR if Pentax enters the market, Sony tried with the Alpha 900 & 850.

Newcomers to photography would never buy directly a FF SLR unless they have so much money they don't know what to do with it, so the strategy of great value camera like the current K-r and K-5 is the right approach for this population.

IMO, this forum population is highly biased on the classic camera geekiness of shooting with old primes, big aperture, long lenses, "pro" FF bodies, etc... The craze being at the moment with swivel screens, video, and mirrorless. In the past years, Pentax has been great at meeting their targetting audience, even if it is with crazily colored bodies, I believe their do care about "true photographers", but they won't do anything at the expense of the business.

04-13-2011, 05:03 PM   #144
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"Originally posted by ghelary
I do not want to repeat what have been said in other threads but current concensus is that Sony is loosing money on their FF and Canon and Nikon not making much on the 5MkII and the D700 respectively."


If Sony, Canon and Nikon were making little or nothing on their FF models, they would not replace them, but that isn't the case. The Nikon D700 will likely be replaced later this year with a D800 and the Sony A900 will be replaced next year. The Canon 5D MKIII will probably appear a little later.

You only have to look at the table above to see that FF is the second most wanted feature in this survey. Going FF certainly isn't cheap, but it doesn't mean you have to spend $4-5000 just for a body either. You can buy a new Sony A850 body for under $2000, an A900 for about $2600 and the Nikon D700 falls somewhere between the two. If you want the Canon, you'll probably have to spend about $2750.

I suppose you could say the Nikon D700 and the Sony A900 are opposites in many ways. The Nikon has great noise figures but only 12MP resolution and the Sony has 24MP with quite average noise performance. The Nikon D800 is expected to reach 24MP with as good or better noise performance than the D700. Sony's replacement for the A900 is expected to use a new 30MP sensor with very good noise figures.

So if Pentax is to make a FF DSLR it has at least two new sensors it could use. I still think Pentax could make a K20D sized FF camera that would be smaller than the Nikon, Sony or Canon. It needs to use a non crippled mount so that all the old legacy lenses will be fully functional. No hitting "green buttons" please. Yes I know some of those old lenses will likely show up their limitations with a FF sensor, but that means Pentax can sell us a whole new range of lenses. DA lenses could function in a cropped mode much the same as APS-C lenses on other FF cameras.

They say that "Fortune Favours the Bold", and I guess it will take a bold move by Pentax to enter the FF market, but Pentax (and it's former partner Samsung) have been hinting about FF DSLRs for years now. It's time to do something about that. Enough procrastination....
04-14-2011, 09:17 AM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by markac Quote
You only have to look at the table above to see that FF is the second most wanted feature in this survey.
Yeah, a whopping 237 people. Not sure that's enough to base a business decision on.

QuoteOriginally posted by markac Quote
They say that "Fortune Favours the Bold", and I guess it will take a bold move by Pentax to enter the FF market, but Pentax (and it's former partner Samsung) have been hinting about FF DSLRs for years now. It's time to do something about that. Enough procrastination....
Pentax have said, pretty unequivocally, the last couple of years that they are not interested in producing a FF camera body. So no, they are not hinting about FF bodies.
04-14-2011, 02:45 PM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
The argument saying that old film lenses can be used on FF digital is not very good IMO. Poor performance of existing lenses from wide to standard have conducted Nikon and Canon to review their whole lineup with much bigger lenses.
Ouch. So that's the route to profits, Hoya pursues a market consisting of owners of old glass (ie. people not interested in buying new lenses) who then feel the need to upgrade because they realize that their cherished old glass is deficient after all?

QuoteOriginally posted by markac Quote
You only have to look at the table above to see that FF is the second most wanted feature in this survey. Going FF certainly isn't cheap, but it doesn't mean you have to spend $4-5000 just for a body either. You can buy a new Sony A850 body for under $2000, an A900 for about $2600 and the Nikon D700 falls somewhere between the two. If you want the Canon, you'll probably have to spend about $2750.
And yet that's still not low enough for Pentaxians. When we did a poll of interested buyers on this forum last year, the average target purchase price of interest (body only) was $1750.
04-15-2011, 09:46 AM   #147
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I feel like this thread is turning into a discussion of the feasibility of a full frame body, and I apologize for my role in that, but I would like to point out that the title of this thread is "What do 'we' really want?" Simple.

Last edited by maxfield_photo; 04-25-2011 at 01:39 PM.
04-15-2011, 10:06 AM   #148
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I've read through all of the posts on this thread (though I skimmed some of the wordy ones), and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned a 50mm f/1.4 that competes price-wise with Nikon & Canon's offerings. I know that 50mm on APS-C is not the same as 50mm on FF, but I have never used FF, and I love the focal length and IQ of my M 50 1.4.

I would like to see more fast primes in the price range of the DA 35mm f/2.4 AL.

I would also like more lens options wider than 18mm.

I agree with those who have requested an uncrippled K mount.

I also think we are ready for the next step in in-body shake reduction, whatever that may be.
04-18-2011, 10:41 AM   #149
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Left out of poll:

More precision in the finder, more speed and precision in the AF, and a focusing screen for MF with fast lenses. Also bearing in mind that while small is nice, a big finder is worth carrying. Just keep improving.

Make Limiteds or similar, but more accessible primes.

They could really get to that flash system, too, bring back true TTL.

And, sure, uncrippled mount.

(Also, for the long tele guys, do throw them a bone now &again? They want to give you thousands of dollars, and their patience deserves it. )
04-23-2011, 09:10 PM - 1 Like   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by maxfield_photo Quote
I feel like this thread is turning into a discussion of the feasibility of a full frame body, and I apologize for my role in that, but I would like to point out that the title of this thread is "What do 'we' really want?" Simple.
I have to agree. I wasn't trying to hijack this thread either. I was adding my comments to what is the second most popular option in this poll " What do "we" want?" and that is FF. If this poll is in any way indicative of the general Pentax population, then a reasonable amount of Pentax enthusiasts out there, would like the option to move up.

It seems like when any of us mentions FF on this around here, the same group of people try and shoot you down with the same rather dated arguments. If you are happy with APS-C that's fine folks, but why does that have to make you anti FF? I don't think anyones proposing Pentax stop making APS-C if it made FF, that would be totally illogical.

Anyway a bit of history.
Back when Digital SLRs first came into being, most manufacturers would have preferred to go straight to FF (Pentax included), but back then FF senors were difficult and expensive to manufacture, so they only appeared in very expensive professional bodies. APS-C was introduced as what was largely considered as an 'interim' option until full frame sensors could be produced more affordably.

Looking at today, FF sensors are no longer as difficult or expensive to produce. In fact I read an article last year that per body, a full frame sensor would add about $100 to the price. Couple this to a bigger shutter, mirror and prism/viewfinder and you are probably talking about $500 extra for FF camera. That difference would drop if more FF cameras were produced. Off course full frame cameras are usually premium models so they tend to have big mark-ups as well.
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