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09-19-2007, 05:51 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
This work can't be completed in just a few weeks, it simply isn't possible.

Take care
R
Roland,
You are of course right. In buy outs like this it always amazes me how long the new owners take in responding to the market. Regardless of their intentions in keeping or selling the imaging division, it would pay to make a splash to let the market know it is a viable company. This is never done to my surprise.

I think there are other forces at work here and don't expect any new products until next September. The inertia Pentax has because of the value positioning of the K100D and the K10D can sustain them until that time. It would not be out of line for Hoya to direct them to trim operations and increase efficiency in preparation for a big push next year. An introduction of two new bodies and a full line of long glass for next Christmas would be Hoyas last shot at making the division viable. This time frame is not out of line with what both Sony and Olympus have done recently.

If I am right this will give me time to enjoy my K10D and maybe get a few more "Old" new lenses.

Regards,

Ken

09-19-2007, 07:48 AM   #17
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10% return on investment is not a high requirement
normally business will demand 10-20% IRR

better sell the camera division to fujifilm or casio
no korean company please, samsung sucks for its quality
i am afraid we will see mtf<1000 *lens soon after........
09-19-2007, 08:37 AM   #18
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better sell the camera division to fujifilm or casio
no korean company please, samsung sucks for its quality
i am afraid we will see mtf<1000 *lens soon after........[/QUOTE]

As Mao said, white cat or black cat... who cares if it hunts mice"
09-19-2007, 10:57 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
Roland,
You are of course right. In buy outs like this it always amazes me how long the new owners take in responding to the market. Regardless of their intentions in keeping or selling the imaging division, it would pay to make a splash to let the market know it is a viable company. This is never done to my surprise.

I think there are other forces at work here and don't expect any new products until next September. The inertia Pentax has because of the value positioning of the K100D and the K10D can sustain them until that time. It would not be out of line for Hoya to direct them to trim operations and increase efficiency in preparation for a big push next year. An introduction of two new bodies and a full line of long glass for next Christmas would be Hoyas last shot at making the division viable. This time frame is not out of line with what both Sony and Olympus have done recently.

If I am right this will give me time to enjoy my K10D and maybe get a few more "Old" new lenses.

Regards,

Ken
Ken,

On this issue I have to disagree with you. If there are no moves by Pentax before mid October, Pentax can put the lights out and move on. In this competative market all the momentum gain in the past year from the K10 and K100 will be lost.

No one wants to wear last years fashions and the speed of change and advancement in this venue of technology is simply something that another year of delay may spell inertia death for Pentax.

One of the issue to consider here is that for many on this forum, and elsewhere for that matter, the transition over to DSLR's from film and P&S is a relatively new pheomenon. While I have been a loyal Pentax user for my entire career for 30 years, the transition to digital requires some upgrading of equipment on the professional level and even on the advanced amature lelvel.

The K10D and some of the new lenses, including the DA* zooms that have come out recently, are capable of professional results. But if the foot dragging and excuses (that might be better said: there is not even a pulse coming out of Pentax lately) continue, there will be a marked loss to the competition. Once lost, generally, customers are lost forever.

There is little doubt that Pentax has had fantastic momentum on their recent releases. However, if the Pentax/Hoya brass eventually want to reach their target of 20% market share, an extended absence of new gear and the continued failure to deliver promised lenses will kill that dream.

I really enjoy Pentax's products. But another year of waiting for what is already available from the competition is not in my bag. If Nikon has it now, why should I feel the need to wait and upgrade my Pentax (probably only equal to what Nikon's 300 is now) in another 12-18 months. As digital imaging has required (to some degree anyway) the upgraing of glass, the need to purchase new glass for a new Nikon system would not be much more expensive than the new Pentax glass which seems to only be a distant promise. Nikon has it now, if Pentax/Hoya falls asleep at the wheel again, what Pentax equipment I have now would serve as a backup when and if needed.

All this said, I expect to hear some clarion statements from Pentax within 3 weeks. I certainly hope I like what I hear.

Stephen


Last edited by SCGushue; 09-19-2007 at 05:18 PM.
09-19-2007, 01:00 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by ddhytz Quote
Then maybe we should buy a bit more Pentax gears now?
I'd love to... you see, I'd particularly like some long fast glass. But Pentax doesn't have any. So I can't.

Sorry but I'm not prepared to put a positive spin on it. If Hoya were to sell off the camera division, we will have absolutely no idea of what direction the system will take (and this applies to both the nature of the system and the quality of the products). Also, if it were to happen, it would be even longer before we got new products.

I'll keep shooting with the Pentax gear I already have. I am happy with it. But digital imaging continues to improve rapidly, so frankly I will not be as happy with a K100d or K10d in 5 years, any more than I would be happy using film from decades ago when there is better stuff available now. When investing heavily in a camera system it is not unreasonable to want to have some confidence that the system will exist, and continue to improve and expand, in a year or two. And if I am talking doom and gloom, it's because Hoya/Pentax are not providing "reasons to be cheerful". There was a lot of speculation (not only on forums but from retailers) that Pentax would be making announcements by the end of August. Didn't happen. Now apparently there will be some kind of noise from them within weeks... I certainly hope so. Because when the company has just been taken over, there's no word on previously road-mapped products, and current products are late and possibly suffering from quality-control issues, total silence is not a reassuring response.
09-19-2007, 06:45 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by SCGushue Quote
Ken,

In this competative market all the momentum gain in the past year from the K10 and K100 will be lost.

the speed of change and advancement in this venue of technology is simply something that another year of delay may spell inertia death for Pentax.

if the foot dragging and excuses (that might be better said: there is not even a pulse coming out of Pentax lately) continue, there will be a marked loss to the competition. Once lost, generally, customers are lost forever.

an extended absence of new gear and the continued failure to deliver promised lenses will kill that dream.

I really enjoy Pentax's products. But another year of waiting for what is already available from the competition is not in my bag.

if Pentax/Hoya falls asleep at the wheel again, what Pentax equipment I have now would serve as a backup when and if needed?

Stephen
Again, if Pentax needs this time to introduce totally new DSLRs, then it is absolutely RIDICULOUS that they won't, at least, introduce new functionality, features, and IQ adjustment by firmware for the current K10.

The R&D department can at least:

- write better, more efficient algorithms affording less computational steps to increase speeds of AF, etc. Quick hardware is already in place. Maybe algorithms with better logic for predictiveness

- They can (as they stated) access the software in the ADC's by firmware to tweak jpg IQ, and even RAW IQ. Maybe even add menu option interfaces for sharpening and chroma noise control if possible. Any little bit helps.

- Maybe by now they figured out how to write better flash control algorithms controllable by menu interface options for multiple flash control, etc. Even the Nikon D80 can do this, and it is software controlled - therefore a firmware update would do this creating functionality, and excitement that the Pentax flash control can be approaching Nikons godlike flash control. The D80 doesn't have more processing power than the K10D, and it handles this well. This possibility might get dampened if the flashes themselves don't have what's needed.

- The OPTION of true 16 bit RAW files as the hardware already exists in the K10D to offer us this. I remember Roland mentioned this. In one of the Pentax press meetings, they even announced it would be included in an upcoming firmware update. Obviously it is possible. Please don't announce it, and then just not give it to us.

- The menu interface choice would be:

RAW>
1 - 12 bit
2 - 16 bit

- A resettable menu interface designed that can can access the focus calibration mode with memory for a certain number of lenses. Again, purely firmware. Stupid not to give this to us.

- Customizable RAW button.

The K10D has much that is accessible by firmware without new hardware.
It would NOT be a good idea if Pentax has decided the K10D is a dead issue with all this waiting for the new model.

While maybe not all of these things can be done completely by firmware, some things can.

While waiting for the new model, a firmware update "list of changes" that has features like these for us to get excited about - the wait for the new cameras will be a little deflected.

Customers have been suggesting these things for the current K10D that they have already invested about $1000 on - and can't afford to "just buy the next model". Pentax is supposed to listen to their customers. No more firmware updates would not be doing that.

Larry

Last edited by mutley; 09-19-2007 at 06:51 PM.
09-19-2007, 09:28 PM   #22
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My 2 cents worth is that Hoya regarded Pentax as a sick and mismanaged company. Old mangement is gone, and the company needs to deliver or its gone two---that is what turn around artists do. Polish the apple and get results or write the loss off. Sale could include
sale to scrap yard, etc.

for a while they can tinker with the camera bodies they have....-----stuff a newer, faster, cheaper higher density sensor in the respective bodies---maybe put a bigger screen display on the back--- a long ways short of reinventing the wheel, and be good for another year, but they need to get the lens family out. IT's hard to imagine that they aren't making tidy margins on $1,000 a pop DA* optics IT makes sense to flood the market with highpriced glass.
09-19-2007, 10:05 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by philmorley Quote
Hi, I would have thought konica / minolta would have more name than sony to photographers, and while pentax has the name in the industry, samsung has the name in the general public for new buyers etc so maybe the name wouldn't be kept?????

Of course, the situations are slightly different. Sony has much stronger brand recognition than Samsung. Further, Minolta as a unique brand name was already weakened by the addition of Konica to it (not so with the Pentax brand). Given that, it appears Sony felt their own name was stronger than either the Minolta or Konica brands. However, since they're now struggling in the photography market, it appears Sony may have deluded themselves somewhat about the value of their name. Perhaps they should have stuck with the Minolta name and tried building on that with enhanced products. The same would be true for any company purchasing the Pentax imaging division.

Of course, as I've already said, speculation on that is a bit premature at this point. I seriously doubt Hoya has any intention of selling off the Pentax imaging division anytime soon.

stewart

09-20-2007, 12:57 AM   #24
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Sony did the right thing when they bought KM and put there name on it. Sony is the most well known name in electronics and a lot of people would buy Sony just for the name. Being in retail sales, I know many loyal Sony fanboy that would only buy Sony products no matter how much they cost even if you can get a different brand just as good for 30% cheaper.

The KM name is only known to "true photographers" who knows the name. Most new comer have no idea who they are and most likly would buy into the C or N system. But if they see Sony, they know that name, and will buy it. Most KM enthusiast will know that Sony picked up the KM mount and would buy into that system. This way it is a double win for Sony.

But back to Pentax. I really hope Hoya don't kill the Pentax photography line. Pentax's PnS, who cares, but I hope they keep the dSLR alive.
09-20-2007, 01:47 AM   #25
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Looks like good news to me

As a business owner, I would view the comments in the downloadable pdf on this site as Good News. For example, this exerpt from the pdf;

'With respect to the Imaging System Business, mainly the sales of digital single-lens reflex cameras, interchangeable lenses and camera accessories remained steady both in the domestic and the European market.

As a result, the sales of the Imaging System Business increased from the previous business year to 21,093 million yen (21.2% up from the previous business year).

As a result of the increased sales and the efforts to reduce manufacturing costs, the operating income thereof amounted to 1,251 million yen (317.4% up from the previous business year).'


I did not read any scary or worrisome news in this, and it was First Quarter April 1-June 30, 2007.

Go for it Pentax... you can do it!!

Phil
09-20-2007, 06:10 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by SuperAkuma Quote
Sony did the right thing when they bought KM and put there name on it.

Well, since Konica Minolta is still in business (manufacturing photocopiers, fax machines, printers, medical equipment, and so on, under those brand names), Sony had no choice other than to change the name associated with the photo products it purchased. In other words, while this (Sony using the Minolta name) is fine for casual speculation, it has no real point beyond that.


QuoteQuote:
Sony is the most well known name in electronics and a lot of people would buy Sony just for the name.

Perhaps true. However, I'm just as satisfied to say I don't have a single thing in my home that was made by Sony. In my opinion, the company's products are overrated, with many other companies producing better products at cheaper prices.



QuoteOriginally posted by matix Quote
(snip) I did not read any scary or worrisome news in this, and it was First Quarter April 1-June 30, 2007.

Go for it Pentax... you can do it!!

I agree, Phil. And have said so elsewhere in this thread. Pentax imaging products are doing just fine, which is good news not bad. As such, there is no reason for all the gloom & doom. New products are coming and are sure to impress. In the meantime, we all have our existing products to enjoy.

stewart
09-20-2007, 09:59 AM   #27
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My take on it is that we will see the price advantage currently enjoyed by the pentax lineup narrow back to what we saw when the lineup was introduced.

Look at the k10d. It was a $999 body that had it's main competition at $1200. Even if it were still a $999 body and assuming that they are currently maintaining their 8% profit margin, Add 2%. Then double that for distributors taking a cut. So 4%. Absolute worst case, double it again for the retial cut. 8% That's a $1078 camera against a $1200 camera.

Realisticly, they are seeing 8% on current pricing, which is $700. That's $756 after hoya increases profit taking. Then you have the rebates. Nuke them (at least on the body and kit lenses) and you make more money on top, and the price of the gear is still very competitive.

Price was a deciding factor in my purchase and that was with a body plus 18-55 at $890.

It's not like the other manufacturers came out swinging feature wise in that price range. They mostly played catch up with pentax's feature set. And for many, didn't even fully do that.

Frankly, pentax needs lenses more than they need a new body, especially with a new broader feature set. Just something simple like throwing in the new 12mp sensor, throwing some software at it, maybe throwing a focus assist lamp on it, and a quieter shutter would be enough to make a lot of k10d users think about whipping out the credit card. Simply putting in a 12mp sensor and refining the firmware would be enough to remain feature competitive with current market offerings.
09-20-2007, 11:17 AM   #28
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Gotta get out the new lenses that were promissed

Gotta get out a 200-400mm ala Nikon; Can't rely on 3rd party help 100%

The whole issue is: [1] Pentax K10D took the market by surprise, thus increasing marketshare and good will; however [2] Pentax MUST fufill their lens roadmap as promissed, as in no new lens support equals unhappy buyers, thus killing good will and [3] put out a big zoom to make wildlife shooters happy; stop relying on Sigma.

All wishful thinking; We shall see the results in a year
09-20-2007, 01:51 PM   #29
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Can you believe how well a Pentax body would be with a Fuji sensor !!!!


wll
09-24-2007, 01:56 PM   #30
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sony and related rants

sony made a huge mistake puting their name on cameras: i must disagree with you guys on this: owners of konica-minolta (km fans) are not picking up sony, they are selling their gear and moving on, newcomers to photography which are sony fanboys might buy sony, but that's it, others will stay away from it at all costs (i know i would buy samsung instead any day). sony products are good, their engineers have allways been brilliant, sony itself is shit (their marketers and public relations have allways been appaling). i cannot in all honesty say "sony made a mistake puting their names on the dslr lineup from minolta", ...they made so many mistakes that many people are not even considering to buy from them. i know i am one, i wouldn't even buy an usb cable with sony writen on it

the sony dslr's are still alive because sony wants them to be, and they can (they have the cash to pump). i am convinced they are not making any money on them, and unless they change their attitude towards customers radically and very quickly, they won't be able to sell batteries soon, let alone dslr's. this is where pentax comes in, with their radically different customer focus (some might say "runners up attitude", but it's been going on forever with pentax, and they are historically a big player in pro photography, so let's not just judjge this by the last 5 years, this is not the mp3 players business ;) ).

all pentax needs to do, imho, is hold on and "keep it real". i have seen newcomers to photgraphy (or re-entering photography) buy into pentax just because it's the best choice in many categories at this point. they researched the market, asked for my help, got it, but no "buy this and don't look back" from me, just facts and how to evaluate options, they decided for themselves. pentax is on the right path, all they have to do is let those crazy developers they have do their job and not let the marketing dept. get too gready, and they will be up in the top three in no time. and yes, the k10d was a hit, the "bang for the buck" is great (without being unrealistic), and probably the best at this time, it's just a fact.

one of the most humbling lessons pentax has given the industry lately must be the fact that you can use the old lenses (which are excelent, as many of you know) on any dslr, nu fuss, no "induced" limitations (like with nikon)bellow a pricepoint; i am realistic and can understand "it's about the money", but howcome pentax old lenses are harder and harder to find, and tend to sell for higher and higher prices, and still, they can barely keep up with the demand for the new ones? so pentax _can_ make moeny selling new lenses with the old lineup of excelent lenses on the market, no limitations on using them (and officialy advertised backwards compatibility)...now why am i tempted to say "this is not about the money, all you others, this is about being an insecure ******* or being bold enough to say: i grew up, i can do better, i can build 1k usd fixed focal length lenses in the 21st century that still make sense, and _sell_, and cheap zooms that you can actually _use_, and...".

fuji, kodak, canon cmos, panasonic-like cmos (can't remeber the name of that one), hell, go for foveon, it needs some "real" camera to use that sensor-- so it can finally take off -- anyway (and it is the way to go, imho, for future better sensors, bayer ccd is close to a dead end, or i should say "it's peak") , put anything in there, just make it good, either way i will be exilirated to get rid of the last piece of sony-made hardware in my camera: the sensor ;)

just my .02$ ;)
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