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11-10-2010, 04:21 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mehlsack Quote
Yeah you may be right with the propietary mount, but i cant imagine something which would be sooo special to buy a Pentax Evil(except for us nerds).
I guess it all depends on what lenses they can offer. Pentax has a tradition of making very compact lenses, so I think they may be able to offer something really special.

One possible solution for a mount that differs from the rest, is to make the diameter smaller. Current mirrorless mounts are very wide, here's what you approximately get if you scale down the LX by the crop factor of 1.53, compared to GF1 and E-1:



11-10-2010, 04:32 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
How good would such an EVIL camera be against, let's say, a K5, for one who would like to carry a smaller, pocketable cam along with the regular gear.

Reason I ask is because I have been looking for a "smaller", but great P & S cam for someone who has a great "photographer's eye" but doesn't want to lug a full size DSLR.
Of course, the main reason would be ... I'd take it along with me quite often!

JP
I think that's the misunderstanding about these cameras. They aren't really "pocketable" in the way a lot of fixed lens point and shoot cameras are. Well I guess you could put them in the cargo pants. However, once you mount most of the zoom lenses made for them (admittedly the Olypmus 14-42mm is small retracted) they probably wont' fit in cargo pants either.

I do think they have to some degree been marketed that way.

The only one I have experience with is the E-P2. What I think is fair to say is if you put either the Olympus 17mm or the Panasonic 20mm you could carry it in cargo pants but you are more likely to just use a very small camera bag.

If you haven't used one I think you will be surprised by their performance. However, there is no, disputing it's not a DSLR. If you are printing, they are essentially as good up to 13X19. At say 8X10, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

The Panasonic lenses are quite impressive if expensive.

So I guess what I'm saying is I really like the E-P2 but I would never recommend it as "pocketable."
11-10-2010, 04:46 AM   #33
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For me this would be an interesting addition IF, and only IF it has a articulating screen. I'm sure the camera will be smaller, but how much smaller is the question. I would image a bit smaller than the K-x, but still have the thickness because of Pentax using all its legendary lenses. On second hand they could make it thinner and offer an adapter for legendary lens use and offer a new line of EVIL lenses .... time will tell. Of course this goes with out saying, I'm sure it will have killer video possibilities.

For doing studio stuff and being able to use my Pentax glass this would be great. I'm sick and tired of trying to view what I'm shooting while standing on a ladder in awkward positions, on the verge of breaking my neck to get a product shot !


wll
11-10-2010, 04:49 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by wll Quote
For me this would be an interesting addition IF, and only IF it has a articulating screen
Hmm... how about an Optio X-inspired design?

11-10-2010, 08:13 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
I think that's the misunderstanding about these cameras. They aren't really "pocketable" in the way a lot of fixed lens point and shoot cameras are.
True, most aren't really pocketable, but I learned on my last trip real quick that EVIL's are far more pleasant to carry around than DSLR's are. I tried carrying a friends K7 in my messenger pack for a morning just because I like that camera, but after 4 hours of walking with it pounding against my spine I had enough and took it back to the hotel and picked up my NEX3. I guess if you don't mind wearing a dedicated camera back pack then a DSLR may not be an issue for you, but I personally dislike dedicated camera bags. I prefer generic bags that can be used for a number of things. Plus, on top of that, the NEX3 will indeed fit into my jeans pocket with a pancake lens mounted on; I just never do that because my iPhone is always in one pocket and my keys are in the other.

That said, I think those wanting pocket camera haven't really thought things out too well. First off there is the aforementioned problem of what do you do with your phone, keys, etc to make room for a camera? But the real problem is any camera small enough to fit into a pocket isn't comfortable to use. I tested out a Canon S90 and the thing was so small my hands wrapped around it. I felt like Shaquille O'Neal must feel when he holds a baseball. IMHO I think the Samsung NX10 is the correct size. Small enough to throw into a bag and go totally unnoticed, yet still comfortable enough to use. I just wish it were a better looking camera.
11-10-2010, 09:28 AM   #36
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whats the point of worrying about registration depth when the lenses are generally so long anyway? There is still plenty of fat to cut out when you lose the mirror
11-10-2010, 12:35 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by WerTicus Quote
whats the point of worrying about registration depth when the lenses are generally so long anyway? There is still plenty of fat to cut out when you lose the mirror
Which is why some want Pentax to go m43 rather than APS-C for EVIL.
I understand that point.
11-10-2010, 12:43 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by WerTicus Quote
whats the point of worrying about registration depth when the lenses are generally so long anyway? There is still plenty of fat to cut out when you lose the mirror
Pancake primes are far from long. The new Panasonic 14mm f/2.5 is almost microscopic. Zooms are longer, but I don't personally care one iota about zooms. Making a camera as flat as Panasonic GF2 + 12mm lens is obviously impossible with the K-Mount. Also, someone can correct me if I'm misinformed, but I've read that being closer to the sensor plane is advantageous, especially with wide angle lenses.

Finally, and most important to me personally, using a short registration distance allows for an adapter to be used for Leica glass. Samsung really screwed the pooch on that one if you ask me. The sole reason I chose a Sony NEX over the Samsung NX10 is because I knew I couldn't adapt rangefinder glass to the Samsung. Unlike adapting large DSLR lenses with very long adapters it actually makes sense to use Leica-M glass due to the small size of most of the lenses. With the NEX system I don't have to worry about lens road maps because every lens I need already exists, I just have to use a tiny $40 adapter ring.

11-10-2010, 02:43 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Also, someone can correct me if I'm misinformed, but I've read that being closer to the sensor plane is advantageous, especially with wide angle lenses.
The reason is that wide angle lenses don't have to be retrofocus when the flange distance is short enough.
11-10-2010, 04:09 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
I guess it all depends on what lenses they can offer. Pentax has a tradition of making very compact lenses, so I think they may be able to offer something really special.

One possible solution for a mount that differs from the rest, is to make the diameter smaller. Current mirrorless mounts are very wide, here's what you approximately get if you scale down the LX by the crop factor of 1.53, compared to GF1 and E-1:
You forgot the motor drive for the LX that makes it larger than Pentax DSLRs.
11-10-2010, 04:33 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
IMHO I think the Samsung NX10 is the correct size. Small enough to throw into a bag and go totally unnoticed, yet still comfortable enough to use. I just wish it were a better looking camera.
I tend to agree it's just not a very attractive camera.

Like I said, I'm really happy with the E-P2 (I usually carry a DP2 also). They both fit in a really small shoulder bag.

I must say the NEX is a really tempting camera. I'm holding out hope that new Fuji is as good as it looks.

If you can work with it's many shortcomings and it's temperamental nature, the Sigma DP2 will give you some really incredible images. I sure wouldn't suggest it to anyone though. It's a real crap shoot every time you press the shutter release button which to me is a lot of the fun.

I would say the one positive with M4/3 is the lens adaptability. I had some old Nikon lenses gathering dust from an N90S I had years ago. I can now use them along with my K mounts. I even have a C mount lens. I am really curious to see what Olympus does with the E-P3.

Last edited by stanleyk; 11-10-2010 at 04:34 PM. Reason: spelling
11-10-2010, 05:25 PM   #42
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If Pentax don't go with micro43 (but I think they should, and make cameras that blow Panasonic & Olympus out of the water!!!), they STILL have to do something "innovative", which is what was being talked about a few months back.

This is pretty much the setup for any current mirrorless camera:


It still has a shutter, which takes up a fair bit of "free space" vacated by the mirrorbox. The lens still takes up a fair bit of space out in front of the camera, rendering it as not REALLY pocketable.


However, suppose Pentax produce a shutterless camera (this is on the cards as Kodak has a sensor that can support this, for example), then this frees up space inside the camera.
So now, interchangeable lenses can be designed to retract into the body when powered off, but extend to the active mode. It would mean that it WOULD be pocketable, would be innovative and would jump the others!!

11-10-2010, 05:37 PM - 1 Like   #43
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They could also make a PK adapter that is partially retractable. A Pentax pancake lens could retract into the adapter:




Not as tiny as above, but still just as small as any other(Panasonic/Olympus/Sony) mirrorless camera with their standard pancake attached!!
11-10-2010, 05:38 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
It would be hard to make it very special though, unless it's a FF one. Now that would be an instant bestseller (depending on price of course).

If such an EVIL camera needs new lenses with a new mount, then why not do it right...
M, µFT, NX, NEX, µCan, µNik, µK, µ645 ... I really wonder how many µmounts the market is able to swallow. Not that many as listed above, for sure.

Also, I don't understand why the smaller ones didn't seize their chance to establish a common mount against Canikon and µFT. Theoretically, Pentax could make their µK compatible with NEX or Leica M and doing either thing may be cool.

As for the unique offering (other than the obvious pink & underwater features), a µKK adapter with screw drive motor (or SDM support in its low cost initial version) and aperture lever plus a dedicated EVF port like the LX viewfinder with the EVF OLED as matte screen and replaceable eyepieces would certainly do the job. Hell, the adapter could even incorporate a semitransparent (non stationary) mirror to support an emvedded phase AF module for full AFC performance.
11-10-2010, 06:03 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
It still has a shutter, which takes up a fair bit of "free space" vacated by the mirrorbox.
Your idea is great but the drawing is misleading.

The shutter incl. shutter frame and support mechanics sits directly in front of the AA filter and occupies a space in front of it no deeper than 4mm, maybe 4.5mm. Measures taken from a K-5. BTW, this is an optical necessity as otherwise, the travelling slit at very fast speeds risks to cause diffraction blur.

So, the removal of the shutter gains 20% of a µFT registration distance only, not a significant effect.

Olympus is rather active in the field of retractable lens development for µFT now. So, your idea is a good one and is being acknowledged as such. But it wouldn't set Pentax apart.

The retractable adapter is ingenious!

Of course, it may have issues with supporting heavy tele lenses when holding the body only.

Last edited by falconeye; 11-10-2010 at 06:17 PM.
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