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11-12-2010, 04:23 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Maybe I'm in the minority on this one since I only have 3 Pentax lenses, but I would simply rather them start from scratch. I really don't care about maintaining a mount that was designed to have clearance for a flappy mirror that is no longer there. The only Pentax SLR lenses I'd want to use on EVIL are in-fact the old manual lenses; and adapters are fine for that. It's pretty simple really, those that want to keep on using their screw driven AF lenses simply use Pentax DSLR's. SDM lenses should work via an adapter (albeit it a bit slow if Olympus is any indication). EVIL's are all about being designed from digital from the ground up, so I say make it as thin as possible.

Nearly as thin as m4/3's isn't good enough, it has to be as thin when sitting on a shelf next to them. Besides, as good as K-Mount glass is, a Leica 28mm Summicron it is not. I'd rather have the option to use Leica/Zeiss/Voigtlander/Contax glass if it meant I have to use the Pentax 15mm Limited via an adapter instead of natively.
I agree with you fully (even though I got many more lenses). I would much prefer an optimized EVIL design, rather than to reuse 25-30 year old technology for compatibility of older equipment. But I also think that EVIL cameras are more of a modern version of a range finder cameras, and no real replacement of DSLR.

IMO the biggest advantage of using shorter register distance is not the size of the camera, the big advantage is that retrofocal design is no longer needed on wide angle lenses. This will IMO make it possible to design much nicer lenses, with smaller size and with larger apertures possible than if keeping the longer register distance.

Just compare Panasonics new 14/2.5 m43 lens with Pentax 14/2.8 APS-C DSLR lens. The Panasonic lens is 1/8 of the weight and less than 1/4 of the size of Pentax lens. An APS-C EVIL version of the Panasonic might be a little bigger, but it would still be much, much smaller and lighter than a retrofocal APS-C DSLR lens. And as non-retrofocal lenses can use a simpler optical design they will hopefully be cheaper, at least fixed focal lenses.


Last edited by Fogel70; 11-12-2010 at 04:32 AM.
11-12-2010, 08:51 AM   #62
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If Pentax releases a durable, weathersealed APS-C mirrorless, I'll be first in line to buy one.

I've got plenty of old MF primes and an unhealthy obsession with Voigtlander M-mount primes that I could mount via an adapter.

Please don't make it too expensive.
11-12-2010, 08:54 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote

The retractable adapter is ingenious!
I can see the arguments now about whether the original Pentax adapter is worth the extra money over the clones!!!
11-12-2010, 10:34 AM   #64
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The super small EVILs are unstable to hold and shoot. More or less like compacts. Moreover in order to make space, they have awkward controls and buttons. I don't say that it's not fun to have such a camera, but I prefer a more optimized EVIL design, a new camera that makes use of modern technology rather than an interchangeable lens compact.

11-12-2010, 11:10 AM   #65
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...Moreover too small lenses have unusable focusing ring. I would prefer an EVIL with intelligent auto-zoom when manual focusing etc.
11-12-2010, 11:45 AM   #66
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...Finally Pentax can produce two EVILs. One with shorter register distance, smaller lenses and a new lens line, and one with the normal K-mount that will give us the ability to use the rich K-mount lens line. I am really interested to the second one. As for the first one I am O.K. with my $200 Lumix p&s.
11-12-2010, 11:56 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by climit Quote
The super small EVILs are unstable to hold and shoot. More or less like compacts. Moreover in order to make space, they have awkward controls and buttons. I don't say that it's not fun to have such a camera, but I prefer a more optimized EVIL design, a new camera that makes use of modern technology rather than an interchangeable lens compact.
A lot of enthusiasts have been begging for that very thing...a Leica M for the rest of us if you will. Sadly no one has made such an EVIL yet. Perhaps the Sony NEX-7 will be the camera we've all been waiting for. That said, I still don't want it to be large. The size of the Leica M9 is fine, but no larger.

QuoteOriginally posted by climit Quote
...Finally Pentax can produce two EVILs. One with shorter register distance, smaller lenses and a new lens line, and one with the normal K-mount that will give us the ability to use the rich K-mount lens line. I am really interested to the second one. As for the first one I am O.K. with my $200 Lumix p&s.
Sony has shown that is easy enough to do with their new translucent mirror/EVF DSLR's. EVF's make sense on APS-C DSLR's since their optical view finders are relatively small compared to full frame cameras, but the rumor is Sony is working on a full frame replacement for the A900 with an EVF instead of OVF. That makes me sad; while I honestly prefer EVF's thanks to DOF preview, I still appreciate a nice OVF, and the A900 has the best one on the market.
11-12-2010, 12:29 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
the rumor is Sony is working on a full frame replacement for the A900 with an EVF instead of OVF. That makes me sad; while I honestly prefer EVF's thanks to DOF preview, I still appreciate a nice OVF, and the A900 has the best one on the market.
Maybe, they make both, an SLT-A99 and an A990.

I notice Sony has sort of matrix scheme for their cameras:

NEX 3 5 7 9
SLT-A 33 55 77 99
A 390 580 770 990

(italic are missing products, bold italic are very likely to come)

The camera you just described would be a SLT-A99. And why no NEX-9? The NEX mount supports full frame for sure ...

11-12-2010, 02:31 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
And why no NEX-9? The NEX mount supports full frame for sure ...
I'd settle for a NEX-7 or a rugged semi-pro APS-C EVIL from Pentax right now. I haven't even dared to dream about a full frame NEX-9 yet. I'd be curious as to if Leica glass could be used on full frame EVIL even if the registration distance is close enough. If I recall the reason the Leica M8 used a ASP-H sensor is because Leica had an issue with the angle at which light hits the edges of full frame sensors. So to solve the issue Kodak developed a sensor specifically for the M9 with special spacing on the micro lenses around the edges of the sensor.
11-12-2010, 03:25 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Maybe I'm in the minority on this one since I only have 3 Pentax lenses, but I would simply rather them start from scratch. I really don't care about maintaining a mount that was designed to have clearance for a flappy mirror that is no longer there. The only Pentax SLR lenses I'd want to use on EVIL are in-fact the old manual lenses; and adapters are fine for that. It's pretty simple really, those that want to keep on using their screw driven AF lenses simply use Pentax DSLR's. SDM lenses should work via an adapter (albeit it a bit slow if Olympus is any indication). EVIL's are all about being designed from digital from the ground up, so I say make it as thin as possible.

Nearly as thin as m4/3's isn't good enough, it has to be as thin when sitting on a shelf next to them. Besides, as good as K-Mount glass is, a Leica 28mm Summicron it is not. I'd rather have the option to use Leica/Zeiss/Voigtlander/Contax glass if it meant I have to use the Pentax 15mm Limited via an adapter instead of natively.
Realistically, what would be the point? I can buy that now, in a second or third gen product, rather than buying an alpha from Pentax. I see that as DOA, and I'm in that market.

I mean it's possible that Pentax releases a world beater, and the everyone forgets Panasonic, and Oly, and Sony, and Samsung... I just don't think it's super likely (since they can't do that with an SLR). So Pentax has to, in some way shape or form, leverage the portion of their native market that those guys haven't penetrated yet, and that means making K-mount glass more functional on their device than it is on those of their competitors. That mean's either native K mount, or a smart adapter; but either of those have to make some concessions to the old mount.

If I were making the decision, I'd opt for the former. Realistically, even if I started with a clean sheet of paper, it would be difficult to out-downsize the NEX system, and again, Pentax users who have size as their primary consideration can already buy the NEX and mount Pentax glass via dumb adapter. A micro system with a smart adapter is great, but it still means i need to build and deliver a line lens lineup, which increases my total initial investment on the system. A downsized pure K-mount EVIL, while not the smallest, would be simple, and a lot of the parts can be cannibalized from existing platforms. More importantly, it would exist, for a brief time, as the only EVIL system with a full lens lineup on day one. And from the POV of attracting new users, Pentax could present unique set of offers, allowing you to buy a EVIL, entry level SLR to semi-pro body, all on a single native mount.
11-12-2010, 03:39 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by climit Quote
...Finally Pentax can produce two EVILs. One with shorter register distance, smaller lenses and a new lens line, and one with the normal K-mount that will give us the ability to use the rich K-mount lens line. I am really interested to the second one. As for the first one I am O.K. with my $200 Lumix p&s.
I think it's doable in one mirror-less camera.

Let me go back to my idea of using the APS-C sensor inside that mirror-less, but not the whole imaging area of it.

Without a K adapter, mirror-less sports small lenses (in Auto110 style) for Kodak 110 film size image area (11 mm x 17 mm) projected onto the APS-C sensor (16 mm x 24 mm).

But with an adapter (retractable, as Dnas suggested) it can use the whole of the APS-C sensor area, same as Pentax DSLRs. It would be a terrific thing. DA40, DA21, DA70 .. get an all new life on a mirror-less *without* a crop factor. And in such a way both systems can share and not exclude each other.

It is roughly a Leica CL analogy, but not quite, because for ultimate compactness Pentax mirror-less would also have a small range of its own lenses and a zoom or two, which can be small because of the smaller imaging area such lenses project.

Neither Samsung or Sony can ever come close to such compact size of the lenses, because they still need to project image onto the full APS-C image size, and DA Limiteds already do that.
Thus Pentax can go down in size, and achieve same amazing picture quality as the DSLR because of the same sensor used.

When you think about this, one starts to wonder why Olympus and Panasonic ever started their 4/3 idea; they have ventured into the production of 4/3 sensors that can comfortably fit into the APS-C image area. Not only they wanted to reinvent the wheel, but are constantly behind others in sensor development game because they need dedicated sensors now and it means separate product cycles and money invested into the practically same thing, but with less resources.

Instead, they could think about a similar approach from day one and share the best sensors available with the rest of the industry, and within that tweak their own approach and philosophy.

Last edited by Uluru; 11-12-2010 at 04:06 PM.
11-12-2010, 04:23 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
If Pentax can make the shutter slim for the K-5, I'm sure there is no problem to make it slim for a mirrorless too. So, there is no need for a global shutter which has it's own advantages and disadvantages. Your idea is great but independent from the camera having a shutter or not.
I was thinking more in terms of how Panasonic could remove their shutter to make room, but either a slim shutter like the K-5 or a global shutter would serve the same purpose in a Pentax: To enable the bulk of a pancake or small zoom to be retracted into the body.

Regarding the retractable adapter, I would envisage that in the "shooting position", it would lock in a solid position. The owner would need to exercise some sense in using it with only smaller lenses in the retracted position, as there doesn't seem much point in retracting it for a 70-200mm lens.

Pentax has the opportunity to display some great innovations with their mirrorless camera.... they need to make it stand out against the competition.
11-12-2010, 04:26 PM   #73
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Would be great for traveling if I can use my three amigos with the Pentax EVIL (APS-C sensor).

Last edited by aleonx3; 11-12-2010 at 05:22 PM.
11-12-2010, 04:52 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by climit Quote
...Moreover too small lenses have unusable focusing ring. (...)
You never used a Leica M rangefinder, did you?

Or, speaking of tiny lenses on a Pentax dedicated forum, a Pentax Auto 110?
11-12-2010, 06:35 PM   #75
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I hope pentax will adopt the NX mount, samsung already has a K-mount adapter and I have a nx-10. It is really handy to take along with the 30mm f2 on it and the IQ is great (just like my k20d). I didn't like the controls on the nex and didn't like the feel of the pen, I thought the panasonic cost too much. I think comparing images on IR told me the nx10 got some unfair reviews and I'm pretty happy with the results I'm getting.
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