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11-12-2010, 08:57 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
You never used a Leica M rangefinder, did you?

Or, speaking of tiny lenses on a Pentax dedicated forum, a Pentax Auto 110?

That's for sure. I'm not a pro.
Do these cameras support f/1.4 apertures?

11-13-2010, 03:57 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by climit Quote
That's for sure. I'm not a pro.
Do these cameras support f/1.4 apertures?
Leica M do not have any real limitation of aperture (they do have a 50mm f/0.95 lens).
Pentax Auto 110 is limited to f/2.8 because of its design. All lenses had to have f/2.8 as widest aperture. Aperture was in the camera and was a combined shutter and aperture unit, and I guess this is the reason for the camera not having any manual settings of aperture or shutter speed. I doubt anything with limitations like on Auto 110 would be very successful today.
11-13-2010, 02:30 PM   #78
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It should be difficult to have exact focus at f/1.4 even with the Leica. Though the M lenses are somewhat bigger than the 110. It works better for low light and no exact focus need situation. The image quality of the Leica though should be superb. Of course it's about hand mades.
11-13-2010, 06:43 PM   #79
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I hope Pentax shows their difference in naming this time too, and name it really Evil (e.g. Pentax Evil-1 or something cool)

11-13-2010, 07:35 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by farhagh Quote
I hope Pentax shows their difference in naming this time too, and name it really Evil (e.g. Pentax Evil-1 or something cool)
As it has no pentaprism (the PEN in Pentax), it must be called Asahi Eftax E-1.

Ef for greek Eftheia for straight, direct (no reflected light path).
11-13-2010, 10:08 PM   #81
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As long as we are all predicting the next Pentax mirrorless, I'll throw my hat in.

The Pentax mirrorless will be primarily a video camera first, and a stills camera secound. It will be fully sealed and weather proof. It will have full manual controls in viseo mode (I note here that the video on the K-5 is nerfed... wonder why?), it will auto focus in video mode, have excelent built in sound, film at all the frame rates, and resulutions you would ever want.

There will be a new series of lenses that can autofocus without excesive noise. They will be small and affordable.

The camera will only come in red at first, with other colours to follow.

They will call it the "Diablo" When you need Evil, get real evil, get Diablo.
11-13-2010, 10:27 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote
The camera will only come in red at first, with other colours to follow.

They will call it the "Diablo" When you need Evil, get real evil, get Diablo.
Will it have any horns by the way?
11-14-2010, 01:14 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by farhagh Quote
Will it have any horns by the way?
of course ... this will be the best feature... lots of reviewers will talk about Diablos Grip (TM)

11-14-2010, 05:15 AM   #84
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I haven't found most EVIL threads very entertaining, but this is a bit better than most with some interresting ideas, in particulary those by dnas and johnmflores.

Just to illustrate that the bulkiness by modern DSLR is not only about registration distance I'll resurect an old figure I've posted about 2 years ago, when I was annoyed my K20D didn't fit as well in my winter coat pockets as my MX does:


The figure shows the camera body depth for each Pentax SLR since the first K generation (KM, KX, K2) in 1975 up to the K-m (I know I should update it for the last couple of models, but it does not change the picture). As you see, even the rather heafty bodies in the original K generation were at least 15mm thinner than modern DSLRs and the M and A bodies were even about 20-25mm thinner. I really don't understand why the SF and Z bodies got that thick (the A3 with the first built in winder was still thin). It came with autofocus (MZ-M is the last really thin one). Then they managed to shave a little bit of again with the MZ bodies, but not all of it. With the DSLRs we have the same depth as the Z-bodies. A large part of this is as johnmflores points out due to the sensor and its electronics and the display being thicker than film+filmdoor. The thinnest Pentax DSLRs ever were the Super-A/Program-A where the thickness are just a few mm above the registration distance (45.46mm). If Pentax could achieve that again, it wouldn't be that necessary to abandone the K-mount to make an evil...

One further step to get it thinner than just moving the display:

1) Keep the mirror, but let it be a fixed mirror reflecting the image 90 degrees upward like in a SLR.
2) Place the sensor on top of the camera to catch the reflected image.
3) Place a svivel display on top of the sensor like in johnmflores ideas.
4) If you want to combine it with dnas ideas, it can be done if the mirror also move when the lens slides into the camera.
5) An interresting option with this design would be to base an in camera shake reduction on moving the mirror rather than the sensor (or both). I'm wondering if one could also achieve some sort of perspective controle with a mirror that is capable of slightly shifting its position?

For comparison, the NX is about 40mm deep despite a registration distance of about 25mm, the Olympus evils are about 36mm thick (registration distance 20mm), and the Sony NEX-5 is 38mm deep (registration distance 18mm). They all need 15-20mm for the sensor and display.

A Pentax EVIL body depth could get within 10-15mm of the competition, still much thinner than all DSLRs, while maintaining the K-mount. With th superior set of small limited lenses, that would be a winner for me!

BTW, i like the Diablo. Top model should be Diablo 666.

Don't have the patience to dig up my original post with this SLR depth figure, but here it is on my blog: through the viewfinder: WHY MY DIGITAL PENTAX BODIES DOES NOT FIT IN MY WINTER COAT POCKET
11-14-2010, 09:42 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden Quote
A Pentax EVIL body depth could get within 10-15mm of the competition, still much thinner than all DSLRs, while maintaining the K-mount. With th superior set of small limited lenses, that would be a winner for me!
I would most likely buy a Pentax translucent mirror DSLR/EVIL hybrid the size and shape of an ME Super; but still, for me it would be a tough choice over the rumored Sony NEX-7. The shorter registration distance is simply more versatile for adapting lenses, which is important to me. On top of that, as much as I love my Pentax LX, I prefer the size and feel of a Zeiss Ikon ZM.

Also, it's worth thinking about just how many lenses are needed for an EVIL. Initially it really wouldn't be many. People interested in these cameras are street shooters, travelers, hikers, and families that don't want a bulky DSLR. For families all that is really needed is an 18-55mm zoom and a 55-300mm to "complete" their kit. Street shooters like myself and hikers just need a few primes. Personally, I only need 2 lenses to start: a 18mm/2.8 and a 30mm/1.4. So that is only 4 lenses total initially. After that they could add an 18-250mm superzoom, a 60mm f/2.0 for portraits and a wide angle 12mm f/4.

IMO it's not worth limiting future camera designs just to maintain a mount from the past; especially if some sort of smart adapter can be made which will allow AF with the current Pentax lenses. Olympus is supposedly working on a modular camera to solve that issue. The body would have an built in EVF as well as all the electronics, then you could just slide in a module for whichever mount you prefer. I think that is a perfect solution. Pentax should do the same if they are interested in maintaining the k-mount.
11-14-2010, 02:12 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I would most likely buy a Pentax translucent mirror DSLR/EVIL hybrid the size and shape of an ME Super; but still, for me it would be a tough choice over the rumored Sony NEX-7. The shorter registration distance is simply more versatile for adapting lenses, which is important to me. On top of that, as much as I love my Pentax LX, I prefer the size and feel of a Zeiss Ikon ZM.

Also, it's worth thinking about just how many lenses are needed for an EVIL. Initially it really wouldn't be many. People interested in these cameras are street shooters, travelers, hikers, and families that don't want a bulky DSLR. For families all that is really needed is an 18-55mm zoom and a 55-300mm to "complete" their kit. Street shooters like myself and hikers just need a few primes. Personally, I only need 2 lenses to start: a 18mm/2.8 and a 30mm/1.4. So that is only 4 lenses total initially. After that they could add an 18-250mm superzoom, a 60mm f/2.0 for portraits and a wide angle 12mm f/4.

IMO it's not worth limiting future camera designs just to maintain a mount from the past; especially if some sort of smart adapter can be made which will allow AF with the current Pentax lenses. Olympus is supposedly working on a modular camera to solve that issue. The body would have an built in EVF as well as all the electronics, then you could just slide in a module for whichever mount you prefer. I think that is a perfect solution. Pentax should do the same if they are interested in maintaining the k-mount.
I'm not saying they will, I'm not saying they should, just that they could. A fair part of the bulkiness of current DSLRs are not registration distance but sensor+display thickness compared to film+filmdoor thickness, and a conservative thinking where they still build digital cameras based on design limitations set up by film.

As for cameras with a short registration distance, yes I'd like to be able to shoot digital with an adapter and be able to use all my Konica Hexanon lenses, but I will not shop until there is a good EVIL full frame alternative. It is not because I have the usual romatic ideas about 35mm being a magical size, but because I'd like to be able to use my legacy glass as they were intended. As long as these mirror-less cameras are 4/rd I'm definitely not interrested, APS-C maybe if Pentax builds one, but probably not. I can wait and keep shooting film.
11-14-2010, 02:52 PM   #87
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I can't wait for this to become official. I love my DSLR and all but sometimes it is just to bulky to lug around. I just finished playing with the Samsung NX and Sony EVIL. I must say the Sony was quite impressive.

I hope Pentax can make it just as nice. I'll be the first to jump on that wagon. However, I hope they don't use a different mount and supports all old lenses. I'd hate to have to adopt a new set of lenses just for it.
11-14-2010, 03:28 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden Quote
A Pentax EVIL body depth could get within 10-15mm of the competition, still much thinner than all DSLRs, while maintaining the K-mount. With th superior set of small limited lenses, that would be a winner for me![/URL][/I]
Well, in near future the new display technologies will let them decrease this a little, and it may change it. However, i guess for the people like/dislike the platform the idea of having a big lens on a tiny body is more the point. May be Nikon is right in going (are the really going there?) with even a smaller sensor, which will let them have smaller lenses. Or even Pentax should go the whole way to a FF Evil. Not that clear which one is the winner in long term...
11-15-2010, 12:06 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
That said, I still don't want it to be large. The size of the Leica M9 is fine, but no larger.
The Leica M9 is quite large, Art; see a comparison here.

...
11-15-2010, 12:28 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Miserere Quote
The Leica M9 is quite large, Art; see a comparison here.
Yep, I know, I'm a former Voigtlander Bessa R3A user (same body as the Epson in that diagram). I'm perfectly fine with that size. Thanks to the flatness + the small rangefinder primes it's no bother to carry around in a messenger pack. In fact I'd go so far as to say out of all the cameras I've owned (which is somewhere north of 15 at this point) the Bessa had the best combo of portability and comfort. My Nikon D200 offered great ergo's, but it was so large I never took it anywhere. My Sony NEX-3 is highly portable, but it's too small for my hands. IMO a Leica M9, Bessa R, Zeiss Ikon ZM, or Olympus OM all pretty much hit the sweet spot of being large enough to comfortably use, yet small enough to be portable.

Where small DSLR's like the Rebel and K-x fail is not the width, it's the depth. They are simply too bulbous. They feel like a mini-bowling ball bouncing around against my back all day when I go on photo walks. Plus, on a purely superficial note, they are simply ugly cameras
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