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12-04-2010, 08:22 AM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
Sony hit it, and nearly destroyed itself...
sony made the same mistake that a lot people make ... the price of Full Frame is in the lenses ... the body may be "only" 1500 $ ... but you still need a liver for the lenses

12-04-2010, 09:05 AM   #122
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Sony make so many mistakes it's incredible they are still alive as a company. One thing for sure: they are not a model to follow!
12-04-2010, 09:40 AM   #123
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I wonder how a Pentax APS-C mirrorless system with K-mount would look like?
Would it be like a range finder "look" with the possibility to mount any Pentax K lens on it, much like a Micro Four Thirds
Olympus Pen?

I did at some time considered the Olympus for travelling, but I have so much Pentax glass that this would have been a waste of money.

I had been looking for a small but efficient (i.e.: great IQ) point and shoot camera to carry around on trips, and when one doesn't really have to lug a full DLSR gear.

Maybe that would be it?

The more I read about this EVIL camera stuff, the more I am convinced that this would be the ideal such "small and efficient" camera.

JP
12-04-2010, 10:39 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
I wonder how a Pentax APS-C mirrorless system with K-mount would look like?
Would it be like a range finder "look" with the possibility to mount any Pentax K lens on it, much like a Micro Four Thirds
Olympus Pen?
.....
The more I read about this EVIL camera stuff, the more I am convinced that this would be the ideal such "small and efficient" camera.

JP
+1. Minimalist camera with 12 mpix sensor to keep the cost down. It'd be quiet without the mirror, hopefully with a shutter thats not too loud. I got a great picture yesterday just sitting my K20 down on a table with a DA21 in a quiet restaurant. Set the parameters manually without using a viewfinder, 3 shot hdr that doesn't look it. Viewfinder doesn't have to be that great to be able to get some good use out it. I'd be tempted.

Ah to heck with the viewfinder, put a 3 inch lcd screen on the back and i'd be very tempted.

12-04-2010, 11:00 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
I wonder how a Pentax APS-C mirrorless system with K-mount would look like?
Would it be like a range finder "look" with the possibility to mount any Pentax K lens on it, much like a Micro Four Thirds
Olympus Pen?

I did at some time considered the Olympus for travelling, but I have so much Pentax glass that this would have been a waste of money.

I had been looking for a small but efficient (i.e.: great IQ) point and shoot camera to carry around on trips, and when one doesn't really have to lug a full DLSR gear.

Maybe that would be it?

The more I read about this EVIL camera stuff, the more I am convinced that this would be the ideal such "small and efficient" camera.

JP
JP, I am almost in the similar situation as you are.. except that I have the k10D instead of the k20D, I look forward to upgrade to k-5 and retire the k10D. At the same time, I am eagerly looking forward for the EVIL (aps-c) k-mount to supplement the k-5. So, I would be able to use both while I am traveling.
12-04-2010, 09:26 PM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Sony make so many mistakes it's incredible they are still alive as a company. One thing for sure: they are not a model to follow!
I'm amazed they conned Zeiss into making AF lenses for the alpha mount.
12-05-2010, 04:05 AM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I'm amazed they conned Zeiss into making AF lenses for the alpha mount.
Zeiss core business is no with photographic equipments. Their lenses are made by Cosina or Sony, Sony for the AF ones. In past Zeiss made also lenses for Contax.

Zeiss is making money out of its brand a bit like Leica does with Panasonic. I'm not sure how much advice they give in the process of engineering the lenses, but I'm quite certain that they make sure the result fit their name.

I never tried Sony's system but I heard quite regularly that the strength of the system is the set of very good Zeiss lenses.
12-05-2010, 05:14 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
Zeiss core business is no with photographic equipments. Their lenses are made by Cosina or Sony, Sony for the AF ones. In past Zeiss made also lenses for Contax.

Zeiss is making money out of its brand a bit like Leica does with Panasonic. I'm not sure how much advice they give in the process of engineering the lenses, but I'm quite certain that they make sure the result fit their name.
After WWII, Germany lost all patents and like many other German companies, Zeiss now produces for companies rather than the end user.

They don't give detailed information about their business volumes. But at least this much I found:

  • Their lens business (ZK and ZA lenses, OEM lenses in phones or digicams etc.) is about 60 million lenses per year.
  • The OEM contract with Sony was extended April 2009 for another 5 years.
  • The sector lens business is part of branch Brand Optics/Optronics:
    - Optronic
    - Photo lenses
    - Sport Optics
    - Planetaria
  • Only Photo lenses and Sport Optics is brand aware business
  • Optronic was quoted having received one of biggest contracts in recent company history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puma_(IFV))
  • The branch Brand Optics/Optronics is one branch out of six:
    - Semiconductor
    - Medical Technology
    - Microscopy
    - Industrial Measurement Technology
    - Brand Optics/Optronics
    - Carl Zeiss Vision Care
    and has a 10% share of total business
  • The total business is about 3 billion Euro, 17-21% profit, 13,000 employees.
  • From a chat I had with Zeiss during Photokina this year, I got the impression (face language) that their contract with Sony does not allow them to release competitive lenses (autofocus or zoom lenses) for other mounts.
  • The sample variation of Zeiss/Cosina-made lenses seems to be less than of Sony-made lenses (private communication from an undisclosed source).
So, in summary, brand name capitalization seems to play a marginal role in their business only, less than maybe 5%. They simply seem to make good products (at least where brand recognition plays no role). But even where it does, the products seem to convince when competitive (ZA).


Last edited by falconeye; 12-05-2010 at 05:27 AM.
12-05-2010, 01:48 PM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
After WWII, Germany lost all patents and like many other German companies, Zeiss now produces for companies rather than the end user.

They don't give detailed information about their business volumes. But at least this much I found:

  • Their lens business (ZK and ZA lenses, OEM lenses in phones or digicams etc.) is about 60 million lenses per year.
  • The OEM contract with Sony was extended April 2009 for another 5 years.
  • The sector lens business is part of branch Brand Optics/Optronics:
    - Optronic
    - Photo lenses
    - Sport Optics
    - Planetaria
  • Only Photo lenses and Sport Optics is brand aware business
  • Optronic was quoted having received one of biggest contracts in recent company history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puma_(IFV))
  • The branch Brand Optics/Optronics is one branch out of six:
    - Semiconductor
    - Medical Technology
    - Microscopy
    - Industrial Measurement Technology
    - Brand Optics/Optronics
    - Carl Zeiss Vision Care
    and has a 10% share of total business
  • The total business is about 3 billion Euro, 17-21% profit, 13,000 employees.
  • From a chat I had with Zeiss during Photokina this year, I got the impression (face language) that their contract with Sony does not allow them to release competitive lenses (autofocus or zoom lenses) for other mounts.
  • The sample variation of Zeiss/Cosina-made lenses seems to be less than of Sony-made lenses (private communication from an undisclosed source).
So, in summary, brand name capitalization seems to play a marginal role in their business only, less than maybe 5%. They simply seem to make good products (at least where brand recognition plays no role). But even where it does, the products seem to convince when competitive (ZA).
I was not downplaying Zeiss of course ! I believe one of the reason Zeiss continue doing lenses (and they released one of the last film camera, on M-mount) is that they feel it as being part of their history and identity. They took over Carl Zeiss Jena after the fall of the wall as well.

Now, I'm 99% sure that money was a very convincing argument when dealing with Sony They don't actually make the lenses for Sony, and apart from a few engineers to control the quality of the designs and the consistency of the making, costs must be limited while the money significant.
12-05-2010, 05:42 PM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
I was not downplaying Zeiss of course !
I didn't assume so.

But it sounded a bit like Zeiss would live from selling their brand name. I only wanted to illustrate that the opposite is true.
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