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thibs · 12-08-2007, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by regken

That's one of the reasons. A decent 19-20mm lens will cost me what $400? I'd rather spend that on a FF body and use the 28mm I have. My wonderful 200mmf4 becomes a 400mm FOV on a 4/3eds body.

Regards,

Ken

Sure sure but if, as you say, you do not ever buy any "non-35mm" lenses, good luck for you wide angle needs. Of course, you can decide not to buy any reduced image circle except for a couple one you can't do without which is the cas of WA if you use any.

anomaly · 12-15-2007, 09:53 PM

Rumors: Pentax K20, K200 debut in January | Underexposed - CNET News.com

Just adding to the stockpile..

RMabo · 12-16-2007, 04:38 AM

Nothing new in there that we haven't already discussed.

thibs · 12-16-2007, 08:27 AM

Well it proves hey dunno what they are talking about a 14bit ADC funny

**jamesk8752** · 12-16-2007, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by thibs

Well it proves hey dunno what they are talking about a 14bit ADC funny

Wait and see, you may be surprised here.

Regards, Jim

thibs · 12-16-2007, 10:02 AM

I doubt it.
There's a difference between ADC "bitness" and Raw files "bitness".
Moreover, the "ADC" is probably (I'm no expert which is why I use "probably") shoud be embedded into the CMOS sensor.
It that's thze cas, well there's not really an ADC since it is built into the sensor.

anomaly · 12-16-2007, 03:50 PM

I don't see why they would go from a 22bit adc in the K10D to a 14bit adc in the K20D. It was probably an error, if anything they would be supporting 14bit raw.

thibs · 12-17-2007, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by anomaly

I don't see why they would go from a 22bit adc in the K10D to a 14bit adc in the K20D. It was probably an error, if anything they would be supporting 14bit raw.

Well, indeed, the rumours suggested a 14bit Raw format but nothing about ADC which is why I beleive those Cnet guys (and a couple others) do not know what they are talking about. Can the sensor output to 14bit? Probably. But there is no ADC since CMOS output bits and not an analog signal.

Ishpuini · 12-17-2007, 08:19 AM

Don't forget the 22bit ADC was a separate unit in the K10D (rumoured to be Nucore?). With CMOS it will have to be integrated on the sensor indeed. The ADC having 22bit allowed for better tonality and noise reduction after the conversion to digital without loosing detail. Since the ADC on a CMOS sensor won't suffer as much from additional noise as noise reduction is done on the sensor as well, having extra bits to recover detail underneath noise isn't really necessary, so 14bit will do...

Or... at least that's how I understand it right now... But there is a fair chance I misunderstood sth somewhere...

Wim

thibs · 12-17-2007, 08:40 AM

That's what I say: there's no ADC .

Mats · 12-17-2007, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by thibs

That's what I say: there's no ADC .

Of course there is, pixel signal is an analog voltage and it is converted to a digital representation. How would that be done without an ADC?
The ADC part of the system must be of very high quality with very low noise so there is definitely not a lot of them. Nikon use a four channel readout in the D200 and Pentax uses two channel readout in the K10D.
/Mats

benjikan · 12-17-2007, 12:42 PM

.....well.......noise levels are very low.......................................will get even better with the final version that hits the market........oooopppppppppppppsssssssssssss.

Should I have said that?

thibs · 12-17-2007, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by Mats

Of course there is, pixel signal is an analog voltage and it is converted to a digital representation. How would that be done without an ADC?
The ADC part of the system must be of very high quality with very low noise so there is definitely not a lot of them. Nikon use a four channel readout in the D200 and Pentax uses two channel readout in the K10D.
/Mats

There's no ADC as such and the way the analog to digital conversion is done on a CMOS can be done very differently, so no there's not a chip which purpose is to convert analog to digital.

mutley · 12-17-2007, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by benjikan

.....well.......noise levels are very low.......................................will get even better with the final version that hits the market........oooopppppppppppppsssssssssssss.

Should I have said that?

One beta tester has already told us this a week ago, but it is great to hear it from you too - especially since it makes it easier to wait for this new camera for the ones that actually have the $1400 or so it will cost. (more than a 40D!)

regken · 12-17-2007, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by mutley

One beta tester has already told us this a week ago, but it is great to hear it from you too - especially since it makes it easier to wait for this new camera for the ones that actually have the $1400 or so it will cost. (more than a 40D!)

I'm not sure you have the price right. My guess is $1,200. If you are right it better blow the ISO doors off the 40D and equal it's AF speed.

12-15-2007, 09:53 PM	#317
anomaly Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Barbados Photos: Gallery Posts: 264	Cnet K20D Rumour Article Rumors: Pentax K20, K200 debut in January \| Underexposed - CNET News.com Just adding to the stockpile..

12-17-2007, 12:31 PM	#326
Mats Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 60	ADC there is! Originally posted by thibs That's what I say: there's no ADC . Of course there is, pixel signal is an analog voltage and it is converted to a digital representation. How would that be done without an ADC? The ADC part of the system must be of very high quality with very low noise so there is definitely not a lot of them. Nikon use a four channel readout in the D200 and Pentax uses two channel readout in the K10D. /Mats

12-17-2007, 12:42 PM	#327
benjikan Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Paris, France Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,308	....hmmmmmmmmm........... .....well.......noise levels are very low.......................................will get even better with the final version that hits the market........oooopppppppppppppsssssssssssss. Should I have said that?

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12-08-2007, 02:21 PM	#316
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by regken That's one of the reasons. A decent 19-20mm lens will cost me what $400? I'd rather spend that on a FF body and use the 28mm I have. My wonderful 200mmf4 becomes a 400mm FOV on a 4/3eds body. Regards, Ken Sure sure but if, as you say, you do not ever buy any "non-35mm" lenses, good luck for you wide angle needs. Of course, you can decide not to buy any reduced image circle except for a couple one you can't do without which is the cas of WA if you use any.

12-16-2007, 04:38 AM	#318
RMabo Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 845	Nothing new in there that we haven't already discussed.

12-16-2007, 08:27 AM	#319
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Well it proves hey dunno what they are talking about a 14bit ADC funny

12-16-2007, 09:46 AM	#320
jamesk8752 Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Suburban Detroit, MI, USA Posts: 238	Originally posted by thibs Well it proves hey dunno what they are talking about a 14bit ADC funny Wait and see, you may be surprised here. Regards, Jim

12-16-2007, 10:02 AM	#321
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	I doubt it. There's a difference between ADC "bitness" and Raw files "bitness". Moreover, the "ADC" is probably (I'm no expert which is why I use "probably") shoud be embedded into the CMOS sensor. It that's thze cas, well there's not really an ADC since it is built into the sensor.

12-16-2007, 03:50 PM	#322
anomaly Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Barbados Photos: Gallery Posts: 264	I don't see why they would go from a 22bit adc in the K10D to a 14bit adc in the K20D. It was probably an error, if anything they would be supporting 14bit raw.

12-17-2007, 06:34 AM	#323
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by anomaly I don't see why they would go from a 22bit adc in the K10D to a 14bit adc in the K20D. It was probably an error, if anything they would be supporting 14bit raw. Well, indeed, the rumours suggested a 14bit Raw format but nothing about ADC which is why I beleive those Cnet guys (and a couple others) do not know what they are talking about. Can the sensor output to 14bit? Probably. But there is no ADC since CMOS output bits and not an analog signal.

12-17-2007, 08:19 AM	#324
Ishpuini Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Antwerp, Belgium Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,727	Don't forget the 22bit ADC was a separate unit in the K10D (rumoured to be Nucore?). With CMOS it will have to be integrated on the sensor indeed. The ADC having 22bit allowed for better tonality and noise reduction after the conversion to digital without loosing detail. Since the ADC on a CMOS sensor won't suffer as much from additional noise as noise reduction is done on the sensor as well, having extra bits to recover detail underneath noise isn't really necessary, so 14bit will do... Or... at least that's how I understand it right now... But there is a fair chance I misunderstood sth somewhere... Wim

12-17-2007, 08:40 AM	#325
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	That's what I say: there's no ADC .

12-17-2007, 12:57 PM	#328
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by Mats Of course there is, pixel signal is an analog voltage and it is converted to a digital representation. How would that be done without an ADC? The ADC part of the system must be of very high quality with very low noise so there is definitely not a lot of them. Nikon use a four channel readout in the D200 and Pentax uses two channel readout in the K10D. /Mats There's no ADC as such and the way the analog to digital conversion is done on a CMOS can be done very differently, so no there's not a chip which purpose is to convert analog to digital.

12-17-2007, 04:56 PM	#329
mutley Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: LI, NY Posts: 313	Originally posted by benjikan .....well.......noise levels are very low.......................................will get even better with the final version that hits the market........oooopppppppppppppsssssssssssss. Should I have said that? One beta tester has already told us this a week ago, but it is great to hear it from you too - especially since it makes it easier to wait for this new camera for the ones that actually have the $1400 or so it will cost. (more than a 40D!)

12-17-2007, 05:51 PM	#330
regken Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bangor, Maine Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,377	Originally posted by mutley One beta tester has already told us this a week ago, but it is great to hear it from you too - especially since it makes it easier to wait for this new camera for the ones that actually have the $1400 or so it will cost. (more than a 40D!) I'm not sure you have the price right. My guess is $1,200. If you are right it better blow the ISO doors off the 40D and equal it's AF speed.

K20d...

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