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01-10-2011, 10:41 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Smolk Quote
And while I agree with the idea, TPSDILC is not a catching acronym though... (truly pocket sizable digital interchangeable lens camera).
I agree, it was just a silly joke from me.
The point using this acronym was just to point out what might be the difference in this concept compared to other mirrorless systems on the market.

SMILC would probably be easier to market (Subminiature Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera), or maybe SDILC (Subminiature Digital Interchangeable Lens Camera).

01-10-2011, 11:18 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
I think a "digital auto 110" would use much smaller sensor format than 110 film. My guess is that Pentax want to compete with high end P&S camera like Canon G11, Panasonic LX5, Olympus XZ-1..., but with an interchangeable lens camera.

The idea behind "digital auto 110" is probably to make the first TPSDILC (truly pocket sizable digital interchangeable lens camera). Which all current EVIL system fails to be.
The digital auto 110 would not have to have a sensor much smaller than 110 film (same size as 4/3 sensor) OR use 4/3 sensor thereby joining ranks with Olympus and Panasonic. They could even do as Canon is rumored to be doing with their mirrorless design and use a 12x18mm sensor. It is roughly the same surface area as 110 film or 4/3 sensor at 13x17mm, but it would be in a more traditional 3/2 aspect. The lenses would then still be very small but also slightly larger than those made for 4/3 aspect, so producing lenses so out of proportion to the camera is less likely.

Okay, enough of my camera design talk...back to selling what is actually on the shelf!
01-10-2011, 11:21 AM   #18
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Retro designs seem to make the Internet giggle with delight - see Fuji, Oly, Leica.

If they are going to go all retro, I'd suggest 70s/80s inspiration:


01-10-2011, 11:56 AM   #19
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Retro design are just another marketing mimic same as they have done in the auto industries. They fade fast

01-10-2011, 12:43 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnaseigel Quote
The digital auto 110 would not have to have a sensor much smaller than 110 film (same size as 4/3 sensor) OR use 4/3 sensor thereby joining ranks with Olympus and Panasonic. They could even do as Canon is rumored to be doing with their mirrorless design and use a 12x18mm sensor. It is roughly the same surface area as 110 film or 4/3 sensor at 13x17mm, but it would be in a more traditional 3/2 aspect. The lenses would then still be very small but also slightly larger than those made for 4/3 aspect, so producing lenses so out of proportion to the camera is less likely.

Okay, enough of my camera design talk...back to selling what is actually on the shelf!
The problem is that in 2011 prime lenses are not as popular as when Auto 110 was released. So it is necessary to use a smaller sensor if wanting as small pocket size system. If using a small sensor it will probably be possible to design zoom lenses that retract completely into camera when not used (like on small sensor P&S cameras).

I'm not sure what you mean by "very small" in reference of MFT system zoom lenses? Any (existing) zoom lens for MFT is not small enough to be of pocket size. In this rumor there are two different interchangeable lens cameras, A "pure" EVIL that most likely will be like already existing offerings, but the "digital A110" is probably a new concept.
01-10-2011, 02:53 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobmaxja Quote
Retro design are just another marketing mimic same as they have done in the auto industries. They fade fast
Oh yes? I'm not so sure. After having seen the GH2's size against the Pentax MX, I think photographic companies have still a lot to learn. The electronics (and ultimately the cameras) could and should be made smaller. A FF MX is any photographer's dream. Good ideas are still good ideas if these are 30 years old.

Isn't it strange? Cars get smaller, but cameras grew bigger
01-10-2011, 03:29 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
I think a "digital auto 110" would use much smaller sensor format than 110 film. My guess is that Pentax want to compete with high end P&S camera like Canon G11, Panasonic LX5, Olympus XZ-1..., but with an interchangeable lens camera.

The idea behind "digital auto 110" is probably to make the first TPSDILC (truly pocket sizable digital interchangeable lens camera). Which all current EVIL system fails to be.
The idea is nice but you hardly see anything already in the VF of a K-x /Canon 550D type of camera which is APS-c, what could it be in this one ! Then for such a small sensors, a fix zoom does the job very well. Soon this type of compact should disappear, replaced by handphones.

The weak point of all digital cameras is the VF, they should work on that seriously.
Once the camera is bought and dreams gone, reality come back then many notice their shots are blurr, they blame the lens, return the camera supposed to be faulty.... but never realise that if they had a real VF they could master their problems. Some feel the problem and get eyepiece magnifyer, it's a bit better only but doesn't solve the matter.

Pana is on the right track and has done a good job with their G serie, but there is plenty to go still.

Mirrorless, yes if you have a real VF, otherwise handheld looking at a screen is unconfortable and useless.
Mirrorless, yes if the lenses follow the compactness, otherwise it is a missed.

I hope Pentax has analyse these parameters and won't step in the trap where Oly and Sony fell into.
01-10-2011, 04:18 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by noblepa Quote
(...) A110 lenses (...) have no aperture control. They are all fixed at f/2.8. Aperture control was in the camera, although, even though I own an A110, I have no idea how it worked.

(...)
It's a leaf shutter within the camera. As you point out, A-110 lenses did not have a built-in iris to control the aperture. Instead, an iris mounted inside the camera body functioned as both an aperture control and a shutter.

01-10-2011, 05:32 PM   #24
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Don't care about any rules, as long as it's small, pocketable, and high quality. Interchangeable or not, ultimately I don't really care, because if I'm pocketing it, chances are I'm not carrying lenses. Otherwise I bring other systems along. Quality and size, anything else is going (mirror or not)
01-10-2011, 05:55 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
I don't understand the difference between the digital 110 and a "pure" EVIL described in the link above.
If the 110 has a mirror as a traditional dslr it's dead already imo. It would be a reinvention of Olympus 400-series which has been done before. And been put to sleep.
I forgot to add that if a digital 110 were to have a mirror like an SLR I'd rather just have the APS-C sized sensor and EVF (I'd prefer that in any case). I find the viewfinder on my *ist D to be too small as it is compared to 35mm Nikons and Canons that I've used in the distant past.
01-12-2011, 05:49 AM   #26
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It is all about design decisions. I am sure Pentax could build an APS-C or 4/3 camera almost as small as the original 110 Auto, if they make the same decisions (limitations)

For instance the 110 lens mount is limited to F2.8, which allows it to be very small.

The lenses does not include an aperture, that is instead handled by the shutter in the camera.

What needs to be added is of course AF, which has to be screw drive if the lenses should be kept small.

With currect sensor technology, I don't think F2.8 being sucha great limitation for a compacct camera like this. If they build it, and it produces good pictures, I am likely to buy it. I do think they should ignore backwards compatibility and make a modern mount with electrical connectors. I guess in theory they could reude the old mirror box and shutter, but they are likley too expensive to built today and need to be redesigned to fit current production lines.
01-12-2011, 11:56 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by quarc Quote
It is all about design decisions. I am sure Pentax could build an APS-C or 4/3 camera almost as small as the original 110 Auto, if they make the same decisions (limitations)

For instance the 110 lens mount is limited to F2.8, which allows it to be very small.

The lenses does not include an aperture, that is instead handled by the shutter in the camera.

What needs to be added is of course AF, which has to be screw drive if the lenses should be kept small.

With currect sensor technology, I don't think F2.8 being sucha great limitation for a compacct camera like this. If they build it, and it produces good pictures, I am likely to buy it. I do think they should ignore backwards compatibility and make a modern mount with electrical connectors. I guess in theory they could reude the old mirror box and shutter, but they are likley too expensive to built today and need to be redesigned to fit current production lines.

I agree, f/2.8 would be acceptable. However, those A110 lenses, with one exception, were all PRIMES, not zoom lenses. Today's market, at least in the minds of the marketers who make product decisions, demands zoom lenses. A 12-40mm zoom lens would either be huge (compared to other 110 lenses) or have a maximum aperture of f/8.

I don't know if the prediction of a digital A110 has any basis in reality, but I still feel that the most likely scenario is that Pentax would introduce an EVIL camera, with an APS-C sensor and a new, non-K lens mount with a registration distance of 25mm or so. They would simultaneously (or shortly thereafter) introduce a new dslr that would superficially resemble the A110 and would use the same lenses as the new EVIL camera. Now, THAT would generate some marktet buzz.

I don't know if my scenario will happen, or if it even makes much sense, but it sure would be interesting.

I find it interesting that the original Auto 110, which didn't last long, and has to be counted as one of Pentax' less successful cameras, still garners so much interest, both in its own right and as the potential model for a new generation of dslrs.
01-12-2011, 12:19 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by noblepa Quote
I agree, f/2.8 would be acceptable. However, those A110 lenses, with one exception, were all PRIMES, not zoom lenses. Today's market, at least in the minds of the marketers who make product decisions, demands zoom lenses. A 12-40mm zoom lens would either be huge (compared to other 110 lenses) or have a maximum aperture of f/8.

..............
The Pentax 110 optical line included a 20-40mm zoom lens: Pentax Auto 110 Variations
Click on "lenses" on right hand side and it will bring you to the page showing the lenses made for the 110. At the bottom is a photo showing how the 20-40 zoom looked like while mounted on the camera - reminiscent of the Nex-3/5 dilemma where the lens overshadow the body size.

There are quite a few "mirrorless" cameras coming - Fuji X10, Oly XZ-1 etc.. It will be interesting what, if any, Pentax comes up with.

Last edited by PentHassyKon; 01-12-2011 at 12:21 PM. Reason: clarify link
01-12-2011, 02:01 PM   #29
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Here is my wild guess. If the rumors are correct in that Pentax is developing two mirrorless cameras I would guess the "digital 110" camera will be a small sensor interchangeable lens camera made to compete with Canon G-12 type of camera. Pentax does not have a camera in the category and it would be different yet compete with those type of cameras. The second camera will be a 1.5 crop sensor to compete with the MFT and Nex cameras. I would also guess we will find out about one of those cameras at CP+ in February.
01-12-2011, 09:40 PM   #30
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Is there any data for Auto 110 register distance?
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