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01-17-2011, 07:00 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
two dials (one close to shutter button, one on the back, concentric to the directional pad), keep the general Pentax ergonomics
I certainly agree about the Pentax ergonomics, but to me that include the location of the e-dials ! I strongly dislike have the "front" e-dial on top behind the shutter because you have to take your index finger off the shutter release to operate the dial, and the rear e-dial's proper place is under the thumb so you don't have to change your grip on the camera when operating it.

The e-dial arrangement on the 2-dial Pentax DSLRs so far is perfect, IMHO: you have the front e-dial under your middle finger, the shutter release under your index finger, and the rear e-dial under your thumb at all times.

Although I'm not sure how well the front e-dial would be reachable on a thinner, "gripless" camera. Which makes me think I'm not sure I would actually like holding a "gripless" camera in the first place.

01-17-2011, 07:03 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cannikin Quote
Are you sure you're not thinking about Panasonic's G(H) series bodies? Those are basically exactly the same size and form factor as DSLRs, just slightly thinner (and and have no stabilization to boot). Olympus bodies are much smaller (not quite as small as a NEX, but close and not as horribly unbalanced).

Ironically, though, I much prefer the form factor of the G(H) series and Samsung's NX cameras because there's actually a halfway decent grip to hold onto. I really dislike P&S style boxy bodies, as I simply cannot figure out how to hold them to be stable (compounded by the fact that you have to hold it out away from your body). And yes, I have small hands for a guy (at least in comparison to Caucasians); my entire hand and all fingers fit quite easily onto the K-x's grip. It's less about the size of the grip, as the shape of it.
No, ep1-style cameras are still way from bein pocketable.
My lx3 isn't really pocketable or at lest is the limit IMO and an ep1 is huge next to an lx3.
Why would I give up dslr advantages if I do not even get pocketability?
Expert compact is the way here for me, sadly.

GH bodies, I don't even consider them.

The problem with apsc, even with a nex (I hate those) is the big lens. No point IMO.
M43 is the max sensor size to allow lenses of a more or less acceptable size.

A mirrorless the size of an lx3/auto110 would be considered though.
01-17-2011, 07:12 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
It could be used to autofocus manual focus lenses, too.
Doubtful IMO, not enough space or you end with 10cm protrusion or something alike.
01-17-2011, 07:37 AM   #49
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I am with you Falks. Yes a new camera is coming to fill that markets
The only question for me will Pentax go PRIMARY after P&S user that what to upgrade or go after DSLR enthusiast who want to go smaller.. My felling is that the first group they will go after otherwise that could interfere with the K-X or K-R DSLR

I see enought function function to attrack the P&S shooter who need something better but will keep it simple. I do not expect a K-5 clone having all the widget in a smaller footprint

01-17-2011, 08:07 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobmaxja Quote
The only question for me will Pentax go PRIMARY after P&S user that what to upgrade or go after DSLR enthusiast who want to go smaller.. My felling is that the first group they will go after otherwise that could interfere with the K-X or K-R DSLR
I don't know if I can believe the rumour that they're releasing two cameras. But the mirrorless with support for SDM in some sort WILL interfere with the K-x/r and this is a good thing IMHO. It would be a second camera for K-5 users and a new entry level for upgraders.

I keep saying: the entry-level dSLR market will disappear entirely. It will happen after Canikon launched their mirrorless products. But dSLRs like K-5, D7000 and 7D will soon be under $1000 and fill the gap. What is enthusiast APSC today ($1500+) will soon be full frame only. I am just repeating what I always say though
01-17-2011, 08:40 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by arpaagent Quote
These are just my dreams, i have exactly zero sources of info...

ok, since you are dreaming, let me dream a little bit too...basically this will be my dream backpacking camera setup, basically cutting size, weight, & complexity and going for maximum durability and useability for what's most important--taking photos.

- APS-C or greater.
- Weathersealed (including small weathersealed primes).
- Good viewfinder suitable for manual focusing. Preferably optical since it requires no power to run, but not sure if that is feasible on this camera.
- Small registration distance to allow fast (F2) but thin normal lenses. ( 28mm Ltd = 43mm F1.9 Ltd please ) or some other equivalent for a fast 43mm ish lens)
- No on-board flash. very small shoe-mount flash available as accessory.
- Very responsive camera like a DSLR, zero shutter lag time (assuming focus locked or manual focus)
- ergonomic grip would be nice but don't make it thicker than the width at lens mount + length of a medium size pancake lens.
- eliminate any unecessary ports. Keep wired remote, flash sync, dc power. No need for direct video output to a TV or connection to a computer. Take the card out and transfer files that way.
- ports should be behind a sealed door like K-7 battery door...not a rubber flap. I hate those b/c they always seem to go bad and fall off.

ahhh, I love dreaming about simplicity.

And some crazier parts of my dream:

- If necessary, lose the shake reduction to eliminate complexity/size/weight. Tripods are good for sharp images as help the photographic process anyway.
- Lose the rear LCD Panel (...stick with me) to decrease size & complexity, increase durability, increase battery life. Plus no one would ever steal it b/c it would look like a film camera . I know this will never happen, but I like to dream. Previewing can be done through viewfinder if necessary. For better previewing, sell a LCD accessory that uses wireless (preferred) or plugs in.
- Hybrid viewfinder like Fuji X100 (also allows previewing images through viewfinder if necessary, this allows us the ditch the rear LCD)


I'm not sure that anyone else would actually buy this camera, but I would .
I would totally buy this camera! Getting rid of the LCD and having a hybrid viewfinder instead is an amazing idea. Keep it simple pentax!
01-17-2011, 08:44 AM   #52
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Thanks Falks. In light of what you say , I now totally agree. And for sure only Canon and Nikon can be the market changer
01-17-2011, 08:55 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobmaxja Quote
(...)
The only question for me: will Pentax go PRIMARY after P&S users who whant to upgrade or go after DSLR enthusiasts who want to go smaller? My felling is that it's the first group they will go after otherwise that could interfere with the K-x or K-r DSLR

I see enough functions to attract the P&S shooter who needs something better but will keep it simple. I do not expect a K-5 clone having all the widgets in a smaller footprint
I would like to point out the statement made by Masashi 'Tiger' Imamura, President of Personal Imaging & Sound Business Group, Sony, in a recent interview with DPReview:

"The concept of the NEX 3 and 5 were for people who already have a compact stills camera and want to take a step up, but see a traditional DSLR as big, heavy and hard to use. We think these models are a very good fit to those customers. But also there are customers using NEX in addition to their DSLR (...) With lens adapters, people can combine their valued, heritage lenses with a very advanced digital body. We didn't expect that kind of usage. So we're planning to expand NEX in a more easy way, a lighter way, but we'll also expand to make models that have more manual control and more DSLR-like capability."

(source: Sony looks to change the world of DSLRs: Digital Photography Review)

In other words, Sony NEX-3 and NEX-5 were meant for your first group but they are widely used by your second one, therefore Sony will soon have one NEX product line targeted to each of these groups.

Pentax could draw on Sony's experiences to design their own mirrorless camera(s).

01-17-2011, 10:11 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Doubtful IMO, not enough space or you end with 10cm protrusion or something alike.
Sure. I don't think that could even be really feasible the telescopic mount, but, just for the sake of dreaming, it could be like the 1,7 converter, that works with short focal lenses, and need constant hand adjustment with longer ones.
01-17-2011, 10:54 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by timh Quote
I can't quite see why they'd release a tiny camera that only worked with their biggest lenses. That seems silly. If it's K-mount compatible it must have ordinary AF capability too.
It will not be K-mount compatible "straight out of the box", it will require a K-mount adapter, and it is much easier and less expensive to make an adapter with electrical contacts that one with a built in AF motor.

Of course the body could have screwdriven AF, but then the adapter needs a mechanical linkage for this screwdriven AF and this can complicate things making it less reliable. Plus, why would the user wanting to pay for screwdriven AF in the body if the user is not going to use old K-mount AF lenses on it with an adapter?

The lenses especially designed for the new lens mount will all feature in-lens AF motors, so for the lenses made for the camera there is no need for a screwmount AF connection.
01-17-2011, 10:57 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Stabilized sensor IMO is a no go for size and weight constraints though I agree it would be nice.
The Olympus Pen has built-in image stabilisation, sensor shift type. But yes, if Pentax makes a mirrorless camera with APS-C sensor then the sensor shift technology could mean a disadvantage in comparision with the competition. However, if you move it to the lenses then the lenses becomes bigger... Look at the lenses for the Samsung NX-system, they are not smaller than lenses for K-mount...
01-17-2011, 12:36 PM   #57
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Will the camera keep the mechanical leverage to close the diaphragm iris? If I am not mistaken, there is no way to electrically command it. If so, they can't just have electrical contact to control the complete use of SDm lenses...
01-17-2011, 02:09 PM   #58
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Pentax always on market as Almost Jack of all trades. What if they release a small FF mirrorless Camera? it does fill the gap between C & N.
01-17-2011, 02:43 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Of course the body could have screwdriven AF, but then the adapter needs a mechanical linkage for this screwdriven AF and this can complicate things making it less reliable. Plus, why would the user wanting to pay for screwdriven AF in the body if the user is not going to use old K-mount AF lenses on it with an adapter?
I suppose I just think it would be far more economical for Pentax to create a mirrorless camera that can use all their existing lenses than to enter the market at such a disadvantage to all the other players. There are already about 20 lenses for micro-4/3rds, and Pentax has far less money to throw at developing a whole new lens series than Sony, Canon, Nikon or even Samsung. They're pretty slow at coming up with new lenses already.

Being able to mount all their lenses (many of which are tiny and extremely suitable) would be a massive selling point for the camera and for the entire Pentax system.

The technical issue to overcome is that the back of the lens is supposed to be about 45mm from the sensor. If they put all the normal electronics and focusing machinery in a body that's a mere 30mm thick they can put on a new mount, release just 2 kit lenses (a tiny pancake prime and a superzoom) for that and bundle a K-mount adapter that's really just a 20mm extension tube with passthrough connections.

(I don't think a mount that extends when the camera powers on would work - would you really want to hang any normal-sized lens on that?)

Crazy speculation and "I wish..." is off-topic here though, I'll stop now.
01-17-2011, 02:50 PM   #60
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I believe there is some kind of confusion on the EVIL subject. On one hand there are those who speak about the small evil, kind of p@s. On the other hand there are those who need a serious evil, kind of the lumix ones.
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