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01-18-2011, 11:42 AM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
No weather resistance (this adds cost - it isn't for free - duh)

Skip the VF, go with the LCD on back, articulated maybe. (LCD is just way too useful for menu choices, showing others, etc to be left off)

Keep the cost low, otherwise its a non-starter. Everyone seems to want these deluxe features like weather resistance - but noone wants to pay for them - witness the numerous recent complaints about K5's starting price.
Seems like everyone wants something different. I wouldn't even consider buying the camera you just described. No built-in EVF, no weather seal = no buy for me. I'd have no issue at all paying $1500 for a Pentax that can rival an M9. If they can build a K5 with glass prism and mirror-box assembly for $1500 then they can do the same in a mirrorless body.

01-18-2011, 11:51 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Seems like everyone wants something different. I wouldn't even consider buying the camera you just described. No built-in EVF, no weather seal = no buy for me. I'd have no issue at all paying $1500 for a Pentax that can rival an M9. If they can build a K5 with glass prism and mirror-box assembly for $1500 then they can do the same in a mirrorless body.
I think to rival an M9 it may have to be slightly more than $1500 given the M9 is $6500 +
To be unique I would have though WR would be on the list. Nikon's new Evil though is likely to fill a lot of the high end gap as they have stated they will focus on a pro model (I would not be surprised to see them do FF, but even a pro features model with the d7000 sensor is not out of the question)
01-18-2011, 12:03 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
I think to rival an M9 it may have to be slightly more than $1500 given the M9 is $6500 +
Not really. Leica's have ridiculous mark up. So just because it's $7000 doesn't mean it's $7000 worth of camera to anyone not hypnotized by the red dot on the front. Just look at the Panasonic LX5 vs. Leica D-Lux 5. They are the exact same camera with different logos on them, but the Panasonic is $450 and the Leica is $800. I think a $1500 mirrorless camera with the sensor and features of the K-5 would very much be a rival and a viable alternative to the Leica M9....just like the Pentax LX was a viable alternative to the Leica M6 25 years ago.
01-18-2011, 12:17 PM   #79
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I can't see any point at all to having a large mirrorless camera. The only reason to lose the mirror is to reduce size - otherwise anything you can do with an EVIL you can do with an SLR. Just switch it to live view.
A nice SLR innovation might be to switch between optical and EVF - but I don't think it's nice enough for anyone to spend the extra money on it.

01-18-2011, 12:36 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by timh Quote
The only reason to lose the mirror is to reduce size - otherwise anything you can do with an EVIL you can do with an SLR. Just switch it to live view.
Well a high-end evil could do higer framerate at full resolution, but then still first sensors have to change to be able to do that.
01-18-2011, 12:36 PM   #81
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As the only non SLR digital that has truly appealed to me is either the leica (for the Form, not the price i wouldn't but it) and the Fuji x100
I would really like to see something closer to a rangefinder in design and operation as this type and size of camera for me is built for street shooting. for everything else I have SLRs (film and digital) and medium format (still need a large format)
I think the appeal of the x100 is it's form and function like an old hexar AF
I think a small wr solid evil with a viewfinder like the Fuji that accepts lenses is an ideal machine. give it k5 dr and iso performance, have a few good lenses available and it could be ideal. the ability to use long lenses doesn't matter to me on this type of camera (makes them unbalanced and harder to hold) but with a nice fast 35 and say 20-24 they would be perfect. one lens on the camera the other in my pocket and i could walkabout and get almost anything i want. (nikon's interchangeable sensor patent sounds pretty damn cool as well)
01-18-2011, 12:44 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Seems like everyone wants something different. I wouldn't even consider buying the camera you just described. No built-in EVF, no weather seal = no buy for me. I'd have no issue at all paying $1500 for a Pentax that can rival an M9. If they can build a K5 with glass prism and mirror-box assembly for $1500 then they can do the same in a mirrorless body.
I agree there is a market for both high end and low end mirrorless cameras. Although I'd be more interested in the high end, I think it'd be wiser for Pentax to start with entry level and build a user base first.

It also depends on how complete of a lens lineup they plan to release with this camera. Are they going to depend on K mount users using the DA Ltd. pancakes? Then a high end model might make more sense.
01-18-2011, 12:46 PM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well a high-end evil could do higer framerate at full resolution, but then still first sensors have to change to be able to do that.
How is that? There's no earthly reason why a DSLR with live view can't shoot at the same frame rate an EVIL can shoot - it'd just need keep the mirror up. They could call it a special high-speed-photography mode - same as shooting video, just higher res and slower.

01-18-2011, 01:07 PM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by timh Quote
I can't see any point at all to having a large mirrorless camera. The only reason to lose the mirror is to reduce size - otherwise anything you can do with an EVIL you can do with an SLR. Just switch it to live view.
I can't agree on that. It makes difference on ergonomics. At the same time it is freeing space for specialized electronics.
01-18-2011, 01:18 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by timh Quote
How is that? There's no earthly reason why a DSLR with live view can't shoot at the same frame rate an EVIL can shoot - it'd just need keep the mirror up. They could call it a special high-speed-photography mode - same as shooting video, just higher res and slower.
Or you could go the Sony route and just use a translucent fixed mirror. Who knows how fast their upcoming A77 is going to shoot. The A55 already shoots at 10fps. Man I'm glad I'm not a sports photographer, I couldn't imagine sorting through that many photos after a shoot. Too each their own, but for me simply pressing a button then sorting out the mess later doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.
01-18-2011, 01:53 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by climit Quote
I can't agree on that. It makes difference on ergonomics. At the same time it is freeing space for specialized electronics.
Electronics don't take up much space, and some people around here already think Pentax DSLRs are too small! "High-end EVIL" is a red herring, at least until EVF's are as good as optical finders.

I used an older EVF for a couple of years before I got a grown-up camera - I know the benefits (chiefly WYSIWYG and inset-zoom-to-focus) and they will be a really compelling proposition in another 3-4 generations. Nothing I've tried - which includes most of the recent EVIL implementations - beats optical yet. There's still a perceptible lag when panning.
01-18-2011, 02:53 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by timh Quote
Electronics don't take up much space, and some people around here already think Pentax DSLRs are too small! "High-end EVIL" is a red herring, at least until EVF's are as good as optical finders.

I used an older EVF for a couple of years before I got a grown-up camera.
There was nothing childish about your EVF camera prior to switching to a DSLR. I bought an E-P1 the first week they came out and took it with me on Scott Kelby's Worldwide Photo Walk right after. I recall there was some other photographer in our group that had just bought a Nikon D700. I remember how proud of it he was and how he loved showing it off. You could tell how much he loved the attention he got from it with his giant 24-70mm f/2.8 lens attached. Funny thing is I never saw a single photo he took that day and one of my photos won from our local group. Further, later on Scott chose my photo to feature on his blog along with other notable photos from around the world that year.

Long story short, there is no such thing as a grown-up camera. Chase Jarvis gets better results from his iPhone then that knucklehead did from his D700. I'm not exactly sure why I've seen people with DSLR's develop a superiority complex as of late with regards to mirrorless cameras, but I'm seeing more and more of it online. Use whatever you prefer. Currently for me that is K7, but as soon as a high end EVIL with built-in EVF comes out the K7 will be on eBay because I prefer EVF's; even in their current state.
01-18-2011, 04:25 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
There was nothing childish about your EVF camera prior to switching to a DSLR. I bought an E-P1 the first week they came out and took it with me on Scott Kelby's Worldwide Photo Walk right after. I recall there was some other photographer in our group that had just bought a Nikon D700. I remember how proud of it he was and how he loved showing it off. You could tell how much he loved the attention he got from it with his giant 24-70mm f/2.8 lens attached. Funny thing is I never saw a single photo he took that day and one of my photos won from our local group. Further, later on Scott chose my photo to feature on his blog along with other notable photos from around the world that year.

Long story short, there is no such thing as a grown-up camera. Chase Jarvis gets better results from his iPhone then that knucklehead did from his D700. I'm not exactly sure why I've seen people with DSLR's develop a superiority complex as of late with regards to mirrorless cameras, but I'm seeing more and more of it online. Use whatever you prefer. Currently for me that is K7, but as soon as a high end EVIL with built-in EVF comes out the K7 will be on eBay because I prefer EVF's; even in their current state.
I'm in complete agreement Art. While I did upgrade to the K5 because I love the DA Limited lenses, I still find that I use an E-P2 and a DP-2 much more frequently than a DSLR. I might also include Steve Huff and Kirk Tuck as two very good photographers with blogs who shoot Olympus/Panasonic.

I'm very interested to see what Olympus has up next. They are apparently coming out with three new lenses and an upgrade to the E-P2 this year.

I find the Olympus to be an extremely well designed photographers camera. I do wish Pentax would enter this market but I remain skeptical that they will.
01-18-2011, 10:24 PM   #89
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I was thinking of a mirrorless with the LCD not on back, but on top of the body...
01-19-2011, 01:59 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
There was nothing childish about your EVF camera prior to switching to a DSLR.
My remark was very tongue-in-cheek... Photographers grow up, not cameras.
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