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01-19-2011, 08:54 PM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
I'm in complete agreement Art. While I did upgrade to the K5 because I love the DA Limited lenses, I still find that I use an E-P2 and a DP-2 much more frequently than a DSLR. I might also include Steve Huff and Kirk Tuck as two very good photographers with blogs who shoot Olympus/Panasonic.

I'm very interested to see what Olympus has up next. They are apparently coming out with three new lenses and an upgrade to the E-P2 this year.

I find the Olympus to be an extremely well designed photographers camera. I do wish Pentax would enter this market but I remain skeptical that they will.
ug did you see those guy's gear? if you dump that much money on a regular DSLR you'll get decent pictures too... he's using micro 4/3 but with very expensive lens... he even got a 7k lecia m9, most people on here got a pentax with kit lens... if you got that much money invested in photo gear you'll be force to learn more too haha.

01-20-2011, 07:06 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by timh Quote
I can't see any point at all to having a large mirrorless camera. The only reason to lose the mirror is to reduce size - otherwise anything you can do with an EVIL you can do with an SLR. Just switch it to live view.
A nice SLR innovation might be to switch between optical and EVF - but I don't think it's nice enough for anyone to spend the extra money on it.
What DSLR shoots 1080p HD video in this price range ?
01-20-2011, 07:19 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
What DSLR shoots 1080p HD video in this price range ?
The features companies have decided to enable in products at various price points isn't really relevant to my argument - which is that there's no point in having a large 'high end' EVIL because there's no advantage over an SLR. Size clearly is the major factor in this market, and so price is too because the people who want a small camera are usually the same people who don't want to spend a ton of cash on a camera. To be successful Pentax have to appeal to the 99.9% of their users who don't hang out on camera forums.
01-20-2011, 07:28 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by timh Quote
TSize clearly is the major factor in this market, and so price is too because the people who want a small camera are usually the same people who don't want to spend a ton of cash on a camera. To be successful Pentax have to appeal to the 99.9% of their users who don't hang out on camera forums.
this is the most concise description of the Evil market I've seen. Sure people on the forums buy evils but usually as a smaller alternative to their better gear (and in the case of the Rangefinder forum people one that lets them use their high quality leica etc lenses on a digital format without dropping $3-7000 on a digital rangefinder)
they really have taken the place in the market that bridge cameras used to dominate, people who want better images but don't want the full SLR kit or the complicated for them operation of an SLR. Olympus has also done some excellent marketing right down to shooting their ads with one (before canon jumped on the boat to battle it shooting ads with rebels the most likely to lose market to Evil)

01-20-2011, 08:40 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Sure people on the forums buy evils but usually as a smaller alternative to their better gear
This is not an argument that can really be made just yet. There is no EVIL alternative to a Nikon D300 or Pentax K-5. I use a K-7 at the moment, not because that's what I want, but because it's the only smallish, yet well made enthusiast camera on the market. If Olympus and Nikon both release high end EVIL's this year then we can compare. I never use lenses over 135mm's, which means I don't need any large lenses. So I will certainly switch to one of the high end EVIL's since I prefer EVF's to OVF's. Who knows though, I'd venture to guess I'm in the minority.
01-20-2011, 08:59 AM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
This is not an argument that can really be made just yet. There is no EVIL alternative to a Nikon D300 or Pentax K-5. I use a K-7 at the moment, not because that's what I want, but because it's the only smallish, yet well made enthusiast camera on the market. If Olympus and Nikon both release high end EVIL's this year then we can compare. I never use lenses over 135mm's, which means I don't need any large lenses. So I will certainly switch to one of the high end EVIL's since I prefer EVF's to OVF's. Who knows though, I'd venture to guess I'm in the minority.
I really don't see an EVIL variant of the D300. These cameras have sold and will continue to sell for their smaller form factors. At the same time, an awful lot of people who buy a D300 will be very dissatisfied with placing a long lens on a tiny camera, or even a large f2.8 lens on such a camera.

These cameras will tend to sell for people who want smaller form factor cameras and they will tend to sell with slowish zooms. The fact that there are pancake lenses available doesn't mean that most people get these. Most will get a zoom and treat them like glorified point and shoot cameras.

The other people who get these are those who get them as second cameras, more portable options to their pirmary system, but not to replace their old system. I just can't see most professional photographers (read wedding photographers, portrait photographers, sports photographers, wildlife photographers) replacing their current systems with an EVIL set up.
01-20-2011, 09:25 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I really don't see an EVIL variant of the D300....

...replacing their current systems with an EVIL set up.
Different styles have different needs. I am a street, landscape, and portrait photographer. I have zero need for a 70-300mm f/4 or any lens of that ilk. So long lenses aren't a concern of mine. I simply want a camera with D300 level of control, build quality, and image quality, but in a small unobtrusive package that works well for street photography and won't break my back when hiking. Further, I only need a few lenses, mostly primes. In full frame terms I need an 18mm, 28mm, 50mm, 85mm, and a 135mm. Then perhaps an f/4 24-105mm zoom.

I imagine a good number of photojournalist would appreciate such a system as well. True, wildlife and sports photographers have no need for a small EVIL because a small body won't help if you mount a 400mm f/4 on the front. However, I could see someone shooting a wedding with cameras like this. You could have one body with a zoom hanging from your neck, then two other bodies with pancake primes in each jacket pocket.
01-20-2011, 10:05 AM   #98
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I'm going to a media event this evening - the introduction of a new motorcycle. At first, I thought about bringing the K-x for its low light capabilities, but I think that I'll go with the Panasonic GH2. With that camera, ISO1600 is pretty clean. Matched with the very good 20/F1.7 and my trusty Pentax M50/F1.7 via an adapter, and I should be able to handle the evening...and shoot some really nice video...

01-20-2011, 07:00 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by clockwork247 Quote
ug did you see those guy's gear? if you dump that much money on a regular DSLR you'll get decent pictures too... he's using micro 4/3 but with very expensive lens... he even got a 7k lecia m9, most people on here got a pentax with kit lens... if you got that much money invested in photo gear you'll be force to learn more too haha.
Actually I have an M3 which I am in the process of selling to a real professional art photographer (as opposed to commerical photographer- and that's not a criticism of either one) who mainly uses a medium format Hasselblad. I don't shoot film anymore since I no longer have a dark room. Actually if you shop on Goodwill Auctions, thrift stores, and pawn shops you'd be surprised at some of the great deals you can get. Forget Ebay.

In fact if you wait a couple of weeks every thing except the DA Limiteds and the 31mm and 77mm will be listed on the forum. I just sold my K7 to a forum member for a pretty reasonable price.

On Micro 4/3 I use either the Panasonic 45, the Panasonic 20 or the Olympus 9-18mm. I don't think this format is for everyone, but I like it. I will be the first to admit the Panasonic 45 is expensive. But it's a good camera lens and I use it a lot. Perhaps my personal situation is different than others but I don't see that as a cause to insult me. I'm older than probably most people here, I got divorced quite a while back and don't have any children, just two dogs. I live very modestly. I don't drink or socialize. I have a 1 bedroom/1 bath house way out in the country so my expenses are very minimal. When I die the only just need enough for a pine box funeral in a no name cemetery and everything else goes to the World Wildlife Fun and the ASPCA. Therefore that allows me to spend what little money I have on camera gear which is just a hobby or my dogs. The dogs get most of it.

As for the M 4/3 the reason I like it is I am more interested in art photography than say model shoots or sports photography. I'm more interested in Robert Frank, Weegee, and William Eggleston. But that's just me and it in no way implies that it's the "right" thing. That said if you read Kirk Tuck's blog he's a professional photographer who uses an EPL2 for some of his commercial work.

I also have a K5 which is a really great camera.

Actually right now my favorite camera is a DP2 which I got for at a pawn shop for less than $150. It's kind of a hassle to use but it really makes great B/W photos.

I am getting rid of a lot of stuff so I can get a Sigma SD1 when it's released. I am very impressed with the Foveon sensor. That said, it's not for High ISO shooting unless they do something with different with this camera.
01-20-2011, 07:08 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
This is not an argument that can really be made just yet. There is no EVIL alternative to a Nikon D300 or Pentax K-5. I use a K-7 at the moment, not because that's what I want, but because it's the only smallish, yet well made enthusiast camera on the market. If Olympus and Nikon both release high end EVIL's this year then we can compare. I never use lenses over 135mm's, which means I don't need any large lenses. So I will certainly switch to one of the high end EVIL's since I prefer EVF's to OVF's. Who knows though, I'd venture to guess I'm in the minority.
Again I find myself in agreement with you both on the EVF's and the not needing anything longer than 135mm. Olympus supposedly has an upgraded EP2 in the works.

I think the issue is the idea that there is one "right" camera for everyone. I just don't see it that way. What works for some might not be ideal for others. I should know I've been pulling my hair out with a Sigma DP2 for several months. I just can't stop using it for some reason no matter how much it frustrates me.

Given that I'm only printing photos at 13x19 or smaller (12X16 on M4/3) I don't need a lager sensor. I am very interested to see what Nikon releases though. I hike with several Nikon shooters a couple of times a month. They really like my EP2 and are very anxious to see Nikon release this type of camera even if it's going to be really expensive.
01-20-2011, 11:01 PM   #101
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You guys agree with each other a lot.
01-21-2011, 01:56 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
You guys agree with each other a lot.
Yeah... it's getting annoying...

Would you not fight a little, just for the fun of it?

01-21-2011, 05:20 PM   #104
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Original Poster
Thanks.
I changed the thread title accordingly. (The OP's title actually)
01-22-2011, 04:30 AM   #105
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Zackspeed -> Any beans to spill? As I recall you have known stuff early before.
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