The forthcoming Pentax Mirrorless Camera

ogl · 03-31-2011, 01:45 AM

Originally posted by Erik

...and better high ISO performance, so really, f/1.9 on a smaller sensor is worse than f/2 on a bigger sensor any way you slice it.

BSI CMOS 1/2.33" could be not worse than CCD 1/1.63" in terms of noise.

Last edited by ogl; 03-31-2011 at 02:07 AM.

Erik · 03-31-2011, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by ogl

BSI CMOS 1/2.33" is not worse than CCD 1/1.63".

You can say that, but unless you're talking about two specific sensors and two specific aspects, instead of generalities, it means nothing.

ogl · 03-31-2011, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by Erik

You can say that, but unless you're talking about two specific sensors and two specific aspects, instead of generalities, it means nothing.

CCD 1/1.6" is noisy - it's a fact.

Erik · 03-31-2011, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by ogl

CCD 1/1.6" is noisy - it's a fact.

Sure, but if you think whatever sensor is in the NC-1 is NOT going to be noisy you're deluding yourself. It's 14 megapixels! And there are no indications, as far as I know, that it is going to be a backlit type -- even if it is, that only helps a little. If it outperforms the 10MP sensor in the Olympus XZ-1, that would be a huge sensation.

**Rorschach** · 03-31-2011, 02:18 AM

Originally posted by eurostar

It's what many have foreseen since the beginning of the year. A digital Auto110. It's not similar in design, probabily it will not be compatible with those old lenses, but it's directed to the same market. A toy DSRL, with modest IQ (as it was for 110 film), able to sit in the palm of your hand. And it makes movie too.

If true, I won't buy it. Period. I'll rather get an adapter and buy one of the small cams from another manufacturer.

ghelary · 03-31-2011, 02:22 AM

It's always a lot of fun to read through those rumor posts, but at the end of the day, one have to hold the camera and extensively test it to give a fair count of a camera/system strong points.

So far we only have limited information about this camera and lenses and everybody starts screaming. We don't know so far what is Pentax vision for this system. We don't know if 1.9 is the maximum aperture allowed on this mount (I dount it) We don't know what range of lenses will available at launch. So why getting angry?

I wouldn't expect it to behave as good as the K5 in low light, to have a blasingly fast AF, but this may well be a very good travel camera for daylight instant pictures.

Lets wait and see

Asahiflex · 03-31-2011, 02:34 AM

One thing is for sure: the optical quality of the lenses should be quite, quite good compared to the dull little and slow zooms usually found on the Optios and the I-10.

Erik · 03-31-2011, 02:34 AM

Originally posted by Boucicaut

If true, I won't buy it. Period. I'll rather get an adapter and buy one of the small cams from another manufacturer.

Even if it did support Auto 110 lenses, the 24 mm lens would be 144 mm-e, and the 50 mm lens would be 300 mm-e, so I hope you like tele.

Furthermore, there would be no way to stop them down from f/2.8 since the aperture mechanism was in-body on the Auto 110, so I hope you like wide-open tele lenses on a small sensor. Also, the mount is clearly larger than the Auto 110 mount, looking at the pictures, so I guess you won't be buying the camera.

the swede · 03-31-2011, 02:43 AM

What about the mount on the other APS-C camera? Zack mentions "only SDM" support.
That means no screw support.

But will the K-mount SDM/DC lenses fit?

Or will it have new mount? Thats Imho the biggest most important question!

ogl · 03-31-2011, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by the swede

What about the mount on the other APS-C camera? Zack mentions "only SDM" support.
That means no screw support.

But will the K-mount SDM/DC lenses fit?

Or will it have new mount? Thats Imho the biggest most important question!

It's reasonably. New smaller mount.
No screw-drive. EVIL will work with K mount via adapter - I think.

eurostar · 03-31-2011, 02:50 AM

This camera? I bet this is the clone of the Kenko camera with C-mount.

ogl · 03-31-2011, 02:52 AM

Originally posted by eurostar

This camera? I bet this is the clone of the Kenko camera with C-mount.

Not clone, but...analogue.

eddie1960 · 03-31-2011, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by eurostar

This camera? I bet this is the clone of the Kenko camera with C-mount.

and Video added

Hope it's actually C mount because that would give an enormous selection of lenses for it (some really good many really bad)

vinzer · 03-31-2011, 06:30 AM

Unlike some people, I'm willing to wait and see what Pentax comes up with regarding the NC-1. I'm not expecting miracles out of it, that it would be enough to make us throw away our DSLRs. The only 1/2.3" sensor I've worked with lately is the one on the GXR's P10 unit, and while it isn't as clean image noise-wise as experienced photographers would like it to be, it's good enough for daily use and for less demanding hobbyists who would rather have the portability than supreme image quality.

The lone concern I have as of now for this system is how much (or how little) DOF control a user would have, owing to the small sensor. While I don't need a Noctilux f/0.95 on a 35mm camera kind of DOF control, it would be nice to use aperture control for more than just a means to control ISO and shutter speed to one's liking. We'll see.

Michael Barker · 03-31-2011, 06:30 AM

Originally posted by Mistral75

How could, at the same time, 8.5mm be equivalent to 35mm and 15mm to 70mm?

Picky, picky. 37.9mm and 22-67mm, or 40mm and 24-72mm then. Any of these are close to 1/1.6 or 1/1.7 sensors like the Canon G12, Panasonic LX5, Olympus XZ-1, etc. Interchangeable lenses might be a nice differentiator in the company of those cameras.

In any case, the focal lengths on the images are unreadable.

Anyway I ran this image through errorlevelanalysis.com.

It looks fishy. See the round white areas that stand out near the DA marking on each lens? The fact these areas stand out in the ELA might mean that area had a different amount of processing applied. Then again, it could just be because they are red, as the site says "It is worth noting that edges and areas red in colour are often depicted as brighter in the ELA tests. This due to the way the photos are saved by various programs. It is not proof that image was manipulated.".

Forensic Error Level Analysis Results for http://www.mirrorles...

"Error level analysis allows you see to see the difference in quality level, represented by brightness. Things which are very bright have been edited most recently, whilst duller parts have been resaved multiple times."

I'm not sure we can make a clear conclusion from this analysis. An example of a clear conclusion with this tool is here: http://www.nameofscience.com/2010/05/image-error-level-analysis.html

03-31-2011, 06:30 AM	#375
Michael Barker Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Markham, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 185	Originally posted by Mistral75 How could, at the same time, 8.5mm be equivalent to 35mm and 15mm to 70mm? Picky, picky. 37.9mm and 22-67mm, or 40mm and 24-72mm then. Any of these are close to 1/1.6 or 1/1.7 sensors like the Canon G12, Panasonic LX5, Olympus XZ-1, etc. Interchangeable lenses might be a nice differentiator in the company of those cameras. In any case, the focal lengths on the images are unreadable. Anyway I ran this image through errorlevelanalysis.com. It looks fishy. See the round white areas that stand out near the DA marking on each lens? The fact these areas stand out in the ELA might mean that area had a different amount of processing applied. Then again, it could just be because they are red, as the site says "It is worth noting that edges and areas red in colour are often depicted as brighter in the ELA tests. This due to the way the photos are saved by various programs. It is not proof that image was manipulated.". Forensic Error Level Analysis Results for http://www.mirrorles... "Error level analysis allows you see to see the difference in quality level, represented by brightness. Things which are very bright have been edited most recently, whilst duller parts have been resaved multiple times." I'm not sure we can make a clear conclusion from this analysis. An example of a clear conclusion with this tool is here: http://www.nameofscience.com/2010/05/image-error-level-analysis.html Last edited by Michael Barker; 03-31-2011 at 08:54 AM.

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03-31-2011, 01:45 AM	#361
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by Erik ...and better high ISO performance, so really, f/1.9 on a smaller sensor is worse than f/2 on a bigger sensor any way you slice it. BSI CMOS 1/2.33" could be not worse than CCD 1/1.63" in terms of noise. Last edited by ogl; 03-31-2011 at 02:07 AM.

03-31-2011, 01:47 AM	#362
Erik Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Umeå, Sweden Posts: 755	Originally posted by ogl BSI CMOS 1/2.33" is not worse than CCD 1/1.63". You can say that, but unless you're talking about two specific sensors and two specific aspects, instead of generalities, it means nothing.

03-31-2011, 02:06 AM	#363
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by Erik You can say that, but unless you're talking about two specific sensors and two specific aspects, instead of generalities, it means nothing. CCD 1/1.6" is noisy - it's a fact.

03-31-2011, 02:12 AM	#364
Erik Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Umeå, Sweden Posts: 755	Originally posted by ogl CCD 1/1.6" is noisy - it's a fact. Sure, but if you think whatever sensor is in the NC-1 is NOT going to be noisy you're deluding yourself. It's 14 megapixels! And there are no indications, as far as I know, that it is going to be a backlit type -- even if it is, that only helps a little. If it outperforms the 10MP sensor in the Olympus XZ-1, that would be a huge sensation.

03-31-2011, 02:18 AM	#365
Rorschach Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Kuusamo, Finland Photos: Gallery Posts: 652	Originally posted by eurostar It's what many have foreseen since the beginning of the year. A digital Auto110. It's not similar in design, probabily it will not be compatible with those old lenses, but it's directed to the same market. A toy DSRL, with modest IQ (as it was for 110 film), able to sit in the palm of your hand. And it makes movie too. If true, I won't buy it. Period. I'll rather get an adapter and buy one of the small cams from another manufacturer.

03-31-2011, 02:22 AM	#366
ghelary Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Paris, France Photos: Gallery Posts: 613	It's always a lot of fun to read through those rumor posts, but at the end of the day, one have to hold the camera and extensively test it to give a fair count of a camera/system strong points. So far we only have limited information about this camera and lenses and everybody starts screaming. We don't know so far what is Pentax vision for this system. We don't know if 1.9 is the maximum aperture allowed on this mount (I dount it) We don't know what range of lenses will available at launch. So why getting angry? I wouldn't expect it to behave as good as the K5 in low light, to have a blasingly fast AF, but this may well be a very good travel camera for daylight instant pictures. Lets wait and see

03-31-2011, 02:34 AM	#367
Asahiflex Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Netherlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,795	One thing is for sure: the optical quality of the lenses should be quite, quite good compared to the dull little and slow zooms usually found on the Optios and the I-10.

03-31-2011, 02:34 AM	#368
Erik Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Umeå, Sweden Posts: 755	Originally posted by Boucicaut If true, I won't buy it. Period. I'll rather get an adapter and buy one of the small cams from another manufacturer. Even if it did support Auto 110 lenses, the 24 mm lens would be 144 mm-e, and the 50 mm lens would be 300 mm-e, so I hope you like tele. Furthermore, there would be no way to stop them down from f/2.8 since the aperture mechanism was in-body on the Auto 110, so I hope you like wide-open tele lenses on a small sensor. Also, the mount is clearly larger than the Auto 110 mount, looking at the pictures, so I guess you won't be buying the camera.

03-31-2011, 02:43 AM	#369
the swede Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,310	What about the mount on the other APS-C camera? Zack mentions "only SDM" support. That means no screw support. But will the K-mount SDM/DC lenses fit? Or will it have new mount? Thats Imho the biggest most important question!

03-31-2011, 02:47 AM	#370
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by the swede What about the mount on the other APS-C camera? Zack mentions "only SDM" support. That means no screw support. But will the K-mount SDM/DC lenses fit? Or will it have new mount? Thats Imho the biggest most important question! It's reasonably. New smaller mount. No screw-drive. EVIL will work with K mount via adapter - I think.

03-31-2011, 02:50 AM	#371
eurostar Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Albareto, Italy Photos: Gallery Posts: 819	This camera? I bet this is the clone of the Kenko camera with C-mount.

03-31-2011, 02:52 AM	#372
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by eurostar This camera? I bet this is the clone of the Kenko camera with C-mount. Not clone, but...analogue.

03-31-2011, 06:05 AM	#373
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	Originally posted by eurostar This camera? I bet this is the clone of the Kenko camera with C-mount. and Video added Hope it's actually C mount because that would give an enormous selection of lenses for it (some really good many really bad)

03-31-2011, 06:30 AM	#374
vinzer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philippines Posts: 1,399	Unlike some people, I'm willing to wait and see what Pentax comes up with regarding the NC-1. I'm not expecting miracles out of it, that it would be enough to make us throw away our DSLRs. The only 1/2.3" sensor I've worked with lately is the one on the GXR's P10 unit, and while it isn't as clean image noise-wise as experienced photographers would like it to be, it's good enough for daily use and for less demanding hobbyists who would rather have the portability than supreme image quality. The lone concern I have as of now for this system is how much (or how little) DOF control a user would have, owing to the small sensor. While I don't need a Noctilux f/0.95 on a 35mm camera kind of DOF control, it would be nice to use aperture control for more than just a means to control ISO and shutter speed to one's liking. We'll see.