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02-04-2011, 06:25 PM   #181
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Good news for the Micro Four Thirds format. Along with Voigtlander another manufacturer is going to make lenses in the mount:

Bad Kreuznach, 4 February 2011.

Schneider-Kreuznach joins the "Micro Four Thirds System Standard Group" - to improve a business consortium that has set itself the goal of the opportunities and the quality compact digital cameras. "Micro Four Thirds" is a specially tuned to digital system cameras standard for lens mounts, developed by Olympus and Panasonic. "This standard has great potential. It simplifies and improves the possibilities for compact digital cameras and offers a great opportunity for the industry as a whole, but also for us optics manufacturer. Planning for an appropriate lens series we have going on at full speed, "says Dr. Josef Staub, CEO of the Schneider group.

The standard defines the sensor size, lens mount, together with communication protocol, the imaging circle and the flange, but also optical requirements for manufacturing and construction. The industry standard has been developed without conscious regard for conventional lenses, cameras and sensor sizes. This allowed both compatibility issues with old components and compromises in the design of new components will be bypassed.

The standard license policy allows each participating vendor to bring the appropriate accessories for the system on the market. Compatible components from different manufacturers should be able to be combined.

About Schneider Group:
The Schneider-Group is specialized in the development and production of high-performance photographic lenses, cinema projection lenses, optics and precision engineering industry. The group comprises founded in 1913 in Bad Kreuznach, Josh. Schneider Optische Werke and its affiliates Pentacon (Dresden), Schneider Kreuznach Isco Division (Göttingen), Schneider Optics (New York, Los Angeles), Schneider Bando (Seoul), Schneider Asia Pacific (Hong Kong) and Schneider Optical Technologies (Shenzhen). Main brand is "Schneider-Kreuznach". Worldwide, about 620 people are employed, including 330 at its German headquarters. For years, the Group ranks among the world leaders in high-performance lenses.

02-05-2011, 02:08 AM   #182
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Yeah, Schneider-Kreuznach, we know them well.
They said the Samsung DSLR lenses were designed by them.

02-05-2011, 05:48 AM   #183
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If M43 mount is open, why didn't lens makers (Sigxx, Tamxxx, Tokixx) make M43 lens and make some money? it seems not that hard.
02-05-2011, 05:52 AM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by kales Quote
If M43 mount is open, why didn't lens makers (Sigxx, Tamxxx, Tokixx) make M43 lens and make some money? it seems not that hard.
It is not ! 43 is open, m43 is not.

02-05-2011, 11:05 AM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
Yeah, Schneider-Kreuznach, we know them well.
They said the Samsung DSLR lenses were designed by them.

Yes, and feeding into my earlier point nicely.....

I still think if Pentax wanted in on the micro 4/3 mount, then they would have started releasing lenses to test the water. Even though they are a camera manufacturer.
02-05-2011, 11:13 AM - 1 Like   #186
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Whether it makes sense for Pentax to join m43 depends on a number of factors such as:
a. How much Panasonic/Olympus want to charge them to get on board
b. Where they would procure sensors for it (and would Sony not cut off their APSC sensor supply if they did join)
c. How viable establishing their own standard is
d. How attractive joining some other standard (e.g., NEX or NX) is

Obviously mirrorless is the future and necessary to avoid being relegated to a shrinking niche company. We've argued that a year ago and had a long thread where many people disagreed. A year has passed, and I think it's clear the writing is on the wall. At the very least, a lot less people would disagree now.

Pentax is late to the game so establishing their own standard won't be easy.

To be fair no matter how much I'd like Pentax to join m43 their best bet would be to join the (allegedly* open) NEX standard. With the information I have, were I on their board, I'd vote for that. Make it WR and WR lenses for a unique offering; use the excellent Sony sensors they already have access to (although it can be debated if Sony would give them best sensors if they were such direct competitors), and they could be serious players in the mirrorless game.

* This all assumes NEX (or should I say Sony E-mount) is really an open, royalty-free standard. I read that it is on another forum, but initial Google searches did not find proof of that, so it could be that the famously proprietary Sony is keeping it proprietary (or perhaps has it documented, but still charges lots for using it).

Last edited by juu; 02-05-2011 at 11:33 AM.
02-05-2011, 03:28 PM   #187
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Sony? An opened mount? Mouhahaha....
I'd VERY surprised.
02-05-2011, 03:42 PM   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Whether it makes sense for Pentax to join m43 depends on a number of factors such as:
a. How much Panasonic/Olympus want to charge them to get on board
b. Where they would procure sensors for it (and would Sony not cut off their APSC sensor supply if they did join)
c. How viable establishing their own standard is
d. How attractive joining some other standard (e.g., NEX or NX) is

Obviously mirrorless is the future and necessary to avoid being relegated to a shrinking niche company. We've argued that a year ago and had a long thread where many people disagreed. A year has passed, and I think it's clear the writing is on the wall. At the very least, a lot less people would disagree now.

Pentax is late to the game so establishing their own standard won't be easy.

To be fair no matter how much I'd like Pentax to join m43 their best bet would be to join the (allegedly* open) NEX standard. With the information I have, were I on their board, I'd vote for that. Make it WR and WR lenses for a unique offering; use the excellent Sony sensors they already have access to (although it can be debated if Sony would give them best sensors if they were such direct competitors), and they could be serious players in the mirrorless game.

* This all assumes NEX (or should I say Sony E-mount) is really an open, royalty-free standard. I read that it is on another forum, but initial Google searches did not find proof of that, so it could be that the famously proprietary Sony is keeping it proprietary (or perhaps has it documented, but still charges lots for using it).
Good analysis of the situation. Interesting vote for NEX. Hard to say whether NEX is the next Walkman or the next MemoryStick. I'm inclined towards M43 after using the GH2 for a month or so.

02-05-2011, 09:58 PM   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Pentax is late to the game so establishing their own standard won't be easy.
how many SLR mounts there was?? pentax was also late when they change from M42 to PK. Why didn't they choose to join Nikon F or other?

It's not necessarily late to establish a new mount, not if you have enough lens development capability.

Last edited by kales; 02-05-2011 at 10:06 PM.
02-06-2011, 02:20 AM   #190
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There's no reason, in principle, why a camera with a tiny P&S sensor can't be made to give exactly the same results as a DSLR.

How so? I'll explain: first you need to consider the sensor itself. For a given pixel count, the smaller pixels will result in a noisier image. So, the pixels would need to receive more light, and you do this by reducing the base ISO - perhaps to ISO 12.5-25 (I haven't done the sums, but this sounds about right). Without intimate knowledge of sensor design, I can't be sure, but I would expect this to be possible.

Now with very low ISOs (relative to a DSLR), you'll need a lens with a range of much wider apertures, if only to provide much more light to the sensor. Also, the wider apertures are necessary:

a). To yield a similar range of DOFs, compare with the DSLR, and

b). To stop the lens from being diffraction-limited, by use of too narrow an aperture.

So, the new camera would need a range of very fast lenses (maybe f0.25 or f0.5) capable of offering the requisite resolution to a small sensor. This is where theory and reality become separated: Pentax would need be able to manufacture tiny lenses with stellar resolution.

What I'm hoping is that the new camera (if it's more than just a rumour) will offer a compromise - in other words, a lower-noise sensor than the average P&S, and with excellent, fast lenses. That way, you get an EVIL which gives very good results in decent lighting conditions, and which will easily slip into a pocket, alongside its sibling lenses.
02-06-2011, 03:17 AM   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by kales Quote
how many SLR mounts there was?? pentax was also late when they change from M42 to PK. Why didn't they choose to join Nikon F or other?
Although my first camera was a K1000 I'm too young to remember the move from M42 to PK. I'd guess that Pentax's position and market share at the time was a lot more established so they could afford to launch their own mount.

QuoteQuote:
It's not necessarily late to establish a new mount, not if you have enough lens development capability.
Yes, but do they? How many lenses have they developed recently? Of course, it could be because they were investing in developing mirrorless designs and will suddenly arrive with a full set of lenses for that. Let us hope that is the case.
02-06-2011, 04:51 PM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
And Oly and Panny went to M43 as an attempt to reduce costs through sensor manufacture at a 4:3 ratio. The whole point of M43 was to start again on price. But the catch is they need to build it around a complete system.
I'm sorry, but this statement is absurd.

BEFORE micro 4/3, both Panasonic and Olympus had DSLR cameras with 4/3 sensors. The 4/3 sensors have the same size (4/3" image circle) as micro 4/3, and they also have the 4:3 ratio. (4/3 doesn't mean the ratio, it means the image circle size of 4/3") The Panasonic GH1 & GH2 have a sensor with ratio of 16:9 still within the 4/3" image circle.

Since both Panasonic and Olympus already had DSLR cameras with 4/3 sensors, saying that they went to micro 4/3 to reduce costs, in manufacturing 4/3 sensors, is absurd. So the advent of micro 4/3 was NOT to "reduce costs through sensor manufacture at a 4:3 ratio", because they already had a 4/3 sensors in cameras!!!!

In 2008, Panasonic and Olympus had 3.8% of the DSLR market share. In 2010 between them, they had 15% of the interchangeable lens camera market in Japan, while Sony had 8.2%. In 2010, 4/3 DSLRs made up less than 0.1% of this market segment.

It's clear that they didn't invent micro 4/3 to reduce sensor costs, but to produce a new product that had some chance of capturing a bigger market share. And they were successful!!!!!!!
02-06-2011, 04:58 PM   #193
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As for the format of one of the two (rumored) Pentax mirrorless cameras, I still maintain that micro 4/3 would be the best format to choose. Yes, they would have to pay a licencing fee to Pany/Oly, but that must more than offset the large cost of R&D to produce a completely new format themselves.

Micro 4/3 is also CLOSE to the film format size of the Pentax 110 format. These lenses could be used with a suitable adapter.

Pentax is an innovative camera manufacturer. I am sure they can produce a pocketable micro 4/3 camera, and pancake lens, smaller than anything Pany/Oly can produce.

They can also put R&D into an adapter for a fully coupled KA mount. (auto aperture, AF)
02-07-2011, 03:37 AM   #194
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4/3

I hope Pentax will join the m4/3. This concept is really small, unline NX and NEX. Pentax already have pancakes they can convert for m4/3.

The camera should be in two versions: rugged and non-rugged.

the size of the m4/3 sensor isn't a problem looking at image quality of the Panasonic GH2! When using with high quality fast primes you can leave the iso low.
02-07-2011, 05:38 AM   #195
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QuoteOriginally posted by m42man Quote
There's no reason, in principle, why a camera with a tiny P&S sensor can't be made to give exactly the same results as a DSLR.

How so? I'll explain: first you need to consider the sensor itself. For a given pixel count, the smaller pixels will result in a noisier image. So, the pixels would need to receive more light, and you do this by reducing the base ISO - perhaps to ISO 12.5-25 (I haven't done the sums, but this sounds about right). Without intimate knowledge of sensor design, I can't be sure, but I would expect this to be possible.

Now with very low ISOs (relative to a DSLR), you'll need a lens with a range of much wider apertures, if only to provide much more light to the sensor. Also, the wider apertures are necessary:

a). To yield a similar range of DOFs, compare with the DSLR, and

b). To stop the lens from being diffraction-limited, by use of too narrow an aperture.

So, the new camera would need a range of very fast lenses (maybe f0.25 or f0.5) capable of offering the requisite resolution to a small sensor. This is where theory and reality become separated: Pentax would need be able to manufacture tiny lenses with stellar resolution.

What I'm hoping is that the new camera (if it's more than just a rumour) will offer a compromise - in other words, a lower-noise sensor than the average P&S, and with excellent, fast lenses. That way, you get an EVIL which gives very good results in decent lighting conditions, and which will easily slip into a pocket, alongside its sibling lenses.
You're asking for technical innovations that lie somewhere between absurdly ambitious and impossible. There is no way this camera, if real, would be a DSLR-quality product. It will probably be marketed as a fun geeky toy. I actually think it could be a real treat--kind of like Instamatic in hardware form. If they can price it around $250 and offer a line of weird, cool optics and clever scene modes, it could be a hit, especially in Japan.
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