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02-24-2011, 01:27 AM   #361
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I am the proud owner of a K-5. Since beginning decemer 2010. I think. You see, it is never with me, it is always in repair/exchange and I keep waiting and waiting for it to return.

To sweeten my misery, I bought a delightful panasonic dmc gf1 with assorted lenses. Just to know what m43 is about. Yeah, it sucks. I fear I am hooked for the rest of my life. Now considering a gh2. IQ may be a bit less, but that is made up by tremendous ease of use and fun. The biggest fun is in shooting blindly by aid of the grid in strong sunlight, cann't see the screen properly. But it almost always turns out cool: fast and accurate af, good metering. Well, the gh2 has a viewfinder and a swivel screen.
Pentax to come out with something small and mirrorles, but Nikon too. Exciting times, if smaller than m43, I am even more curious. Of course it sucks, mirrorless, different standards, no peace in a poor deciding what to do mind.

02-24-2011, 03:11 AM   #362
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
This is getting ridiculous, you can't just call one of the small camera mounts an "industry standard".
Actually, only Aristophanes used the term "industry standard" here. You should talk to him.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I would caveat it's not a lie to those who buy in to their system. That's the whole point. Oly says m43 lenses are smaller and that's a truth. It still does not make m43 a standard to anyone but someone who bought m43!
That makes little to no sense.

QuoteQuote:
Definition: fanboy.
This is at least the second time you resort to personal attacks in this thread.

QuoteQuote:
Poor Fuji. Did you tell them? They have this new camera coming out....
Which isn't a system camera so the word "standard" wouldn't really apply to it in this context.

QuoteQuote:
And maybe I do make Sudsy Kitty soap and it is the international standard because I say so and is dominant in sales of a worldwide kitten washing consortium.
Except you don't, which kinda renders this part of your argument irrelevant.

QuoteQuote:
At least as a photographer I know that film is not just a "sheet of plastic".
You have severe reading comprehension issues. Let me summarize that part of our discussion:

You: Film is a standard
Me: No, film is (mostly) a sheet of plastic. Different film formats are standards.
You: That means you are not a photographer.

Do you see you make no sense here?

QuoteQuote:
I have noting against m43 as a system. Each to their own. It's a vast market. Back to the OP, m43 has a marginal size convenience wrapped around a sensor inferior to APS-C, which is why I think Pentax should not downgrade to that standard.
Nice of you to finally refer to m43 as a standard.

Last edited by juu; 02-24-2011 at 03:27 AM.
02-24-2011, 04:45 AM   #363
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxMom Felua Quote
Of course it sucks, mirrorless, different standards, no peace in a poor deciding what to do mind.
Amen. And I think a lot of people would have a similar tale to tell about being hooked on the fun little "low quality" camera & images.
02-24-2011, 05:44 AM   #364
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
As an aside, when 43 and then m43 came out there was a lot of talk about why Panasonic simply did not buy Olympus. Barriers in Japanese business mergers and divergent lines of non-retail business were seen as an impediment, as was Panny's long-term deal with Leica. Almost anywhere outside of Japan, the much smaller Olympus would have been M&A'd with the much larger Panasonic and m43 would be as proprietary a system within one corporation as F-mount is to Nikon. It's really only a business convenience that 2 companies offer the mount.
I'm not sure about this. Panasonic bought a controlling stake in Sanyo that cost them far more than a controlling stake in Olympus would have cost. But 300B would be a lot to pay for access to the 43 patents.

02-24-2011, 07:03 AM   #365
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Actually, only Aristophanes used the term "industry standard" here. You should talk to him.
No, I'm talking to you.
And if you agree it's not an industry standard, we know it's not an ISO standard nor an open standard (because, well, it's not open); then, which kind of standard is it? "Because the marketing said so" standard?
02-24-2011, 07:03 AM   #366
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Nice of you to finally refer to m43 as a standard.
I've never said it is not. The use of the word standard is a generic marketing device with a spec sheet. Nothing more.

Just like Samsung's "standard" for NX as posted previous.

m43 is 100% patented and owned by Olympus. They also own the 43 patent, so it's not just lens mount, but sensor format as well. The official title of m43 is actually, Micro Four Thirds System, all in caps because that is an official copyright and trademark, an IP concurrent with Olympus's patents.

The "System" is the 43 patent description and title. The "standard" however, is all marketing and spec sheet. One "joins" the standard only on Olympus's acceptance. At the "standards" table, the patent assignee (Olympus) has last word. Zeiss joined because Oly said they could. That's the only way in.

The same applies to the Samsung NX "standard" lens mount. The "standard" of the Sony e-mount...and so on.

Is Pentax going to give up the proven formula of a proprietary lens mount someone else's 100% wholly owned source code? I highly doubt it. Samsung tried that and walked. Pentax was likely only going to go so far in facilitating a competitor. Oly and Panny have been in it since day 1 with 43 because Oly desperately needed an electronics partner.

It sounds like Pentax will shadow Nikon and go to a smaller sensor 2.5 crop MILC to get a foot in the door and out-small m43, then work on their APS-C offerings transitioning from DSLR to MILC as the market turns. With DSLR sales so strong and growing in unit volumes, there's no need to panic or be frantic. Pentax won't (and cannot given the crown jewel barrier) downgrade their flagship cameras to m43. Pentax clearly sees the m43 "standard" as a marketing device wholly owned by a competitor even if others here do not accept that undeniable reality.

P.S. And I have never said that the m43 "standard" is a lie. It is what it says it is, but to the overall market it is as proprietary as any other lens mount . More so since the patent clock is ticking at a later date than k- or f-mounts.

Last edited by Aristophanes; 02-24-2011 at 07:15 AM. Reason: P.S.
02-24-2011, 07:13 AM   #367
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
Nothing in common with film vs. digital. It has more in common with the "paperless office". How did that turn out?
Ok, I'll play....

EVF vs OVF has nothing in common with paper vs. digital business documents. It has more in common with paper postcards vs. Facebook posts. How did that turn out?

I am 34 and "way too young" to be so attached to an optical viewfinder. But wait. I'm not attached to just any optical viewfinder. I'm attached to a 0.95x viewfinder. Not 0.85x APS-C or 1.1x M43 - these are equivalent to like, I don't know ... 0.55x.

Making the viewfinder large enough would go a long way to letting EVF replace OVF. And, while we're at it, can we please put it in the "rangefinder" position, on the corner? That would be a 2-0 score for EVIL vs. APS-DSLR.

If the makers can do that, I can be flexible about the camera size...

Still, as I've said before, a 2.7x crop camera would be great for a lot things. More depth of field is often a good thing, and I'd accept the additional 1.4x crop vs. m43 in image quality ... (2x * 1.35x = 2.7x).

It looks like the future is going to be a range of sensor formats. Which only makes sense. The only reason for not starting a new sensor size is manufacturing volume discounts. But the need to have a different product from the other makers balances that.

Pentax is small, so they need to match the sensor format of somebody else. By waiting they have given themselves options. Once Nikon and/or Canon announce, they may have more options. It would be quite exciting to see Nikon, Canon and Pentax all announce 2.7x crop cameras in the same year.

If even one of them gets the EVF right, it will be the start of something great.

And the paperless office will come, soon enough. Like EVIL, it's still in the Beta stage.

Last edited by Michael Barker; 02-24-2011 at 07:24 AM.
02-24-2011, 08:02 AM   #368
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QuoteQuote:
QuoteQuote:
And maybe I do make Sudsy Kitty soap and it is the international standard because I say so and is dominant in sales of a worldwide kitten washing consortium.
Except you don't, which kinda renders this part of your argument irrelevant.
No, but I do make Sudsy Kitty soap. And you dare use me in your arguments?

You have not only stomped on my trademark but have insulted my VOCATION!



You must proceed directly to Sudsy Kitty Soap and purchase our warez, or be prepared for some real fur to fly!



AND NOW, permit me to attack myself, personally and ferociously!!!!

I am not a photographer! (Ouch)
I am not a photographer! (Ow!)
I am not a photographer! (Jeez!)

Look out folks ... the next post just may be a FILIBUSTER.


Last edited by Michael Barker; 02-24-2011 at 08:30 AM.
02-24-2011, 09:35 AM   #369
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QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Barkowski Quote
...
lol good stuff, please post more often.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Nice of you to finally refer to m43 as a standard.
I've never said it is not.
OK, had you said that earlier it could have saved us the discussion .

QuoteQuote:
It sounds like Pentax will shadow Nikon and go to a smaller sensor 2.5 crop MILC to get a foot in the door and out-small m43, then work on their APS-C offerings transitioning from DSLR to MILC as the market turns.
Sounds like you are prophesying too many steps ahead with reckless abandon, but whatever rocks your boat...

QuoteQuote:
With DSLR sales so strong and growing in unit volumes, there's no need to panic or be frantic.
Which reminds me, you never did substantiate your earlier claim about "massively increased unit volumes".

Also, I kinda hate to bring it up, but based on publicly available information, do you think Pentax has growth in unit volumes right now?

QuoteQuote:
Pentax won't (and cannot given the crown jewel barrier) downgrade their flagship cameras to m43.
That's a strawman again. They cannot join m43 because that would be a "downgrade" but they can do a 2.5x CF sensor and that would be cool? lol talk about hypocrisy (or at least making false implications).

QuoteQuote:
Pentax clearly sees the m43 "standard" as a marketing device wholly owned by a competitor even if others here do not accept that undeniable reality.
Actually I'm fairly sure you have little to no idea about what's going on in the Pentax boardroom, you don't know if and when and how many times they have talked to Panasonic or Sony about joining one of those competing mirrorless standards, and so forth.

That's all just your opinion, mostly based on hubris and not reality.

Last edited by juu; 02-24-2011 at 09:43 AM.
02-24-2011, 09:58 AM   #370
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If this new Pentax is really such a small sensor, I'm not sure how it will work out for them.

One of the reasons most people buy interchangeable lens cameras is an expectation of higher quality images. Making one with a digicam sensor.... not so much.

So it might be a "fun" camera/toy at least. It would have to be pretty cheap though if they are not going toward the quality aspect.
02-24-2011, 10:09 AM   #371
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
QuoteQuote:
It sounds like Pentax will shadow Nikon and go to a smaller sensor 2.5 crop MILC to get a foot in the door and out-small m43, then work on their APS-C offerings transitioning from DSLR to MILC as the market turns.
Sounds like you are prophesying too many steps ahead with reckless abandon, but whatever rocks your boat...
I would like to offer an equally valuable contribution to this enlightening discussion of the rumored Pentax NC-1:

Mayan prophecy says a ladder will emerge from the center of our Milky Way! In fact, E.A.s ship, called the Magur-boat and esteemed as the "Great Boat of Heaven", is one of the more frequently-depicted images in Mesopotamian art, but modern Ayurvedic mystics prefer to call it the "Reckless Abandon". Featured on this ship is the Stairway to Heaven, the mythological flight of steps on which the Straw Man was said to have made his mirror-less journey from the marketplace.

Scientists have estimated there are 50 billion planets in the Milky Way. Results of the first census of our galaxy also show that at least 500 million of these planets could support life. The numbers were worked out from early results supplied by Nasa’s Kepler telescope, which has found 1,235 planets in a year. Experts estimate there are 100 billion galaxies.

Speaking of which, how do you zoom in or out when you use Galaxy S camera? Using Volume up and down keys is one way, but you may also pinch the camera preview screen for 4.0x zooming.

To be continued...
02-24-2011, 10:43 AM   #372
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Canon's new mount will be K-compatible. Short for Kitty-compatible. All your litter boxes are belong to us.

Show me one post where I've said something wrong. Go ahead, make my day, humans!

02-24-2011, 10:44 AM   #373
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
No, I'm talking to you.
And if you agree it's not an industry standard, we know it's not an ISO standard nor an open standard (because, well, it's not open); then, which kind of standard is it? "Because the marketing said so" standard?
Hah! Perfect.

Until this thread I was unaware that m43 is now the "de facto mirrorless standard" for the industry. For 40 years I had wrongly assumed it was Leica. Silly me. I feel honoured to be so informed. Good thing for "News & Rumors" sections. Almost missed that nugget.

And apparently my comments in a rumours section qualify as "reckless abandon". But announcing de facto standards is not reckless. Someone's glass house is broken.

BTW I've trademarked Sudsy Kitty. It's no longer a soap. It's a beer. I'll use the Bavarian brewing method. Apparently it's a legal "standard"...somewhere. Hard to find amongst all that beer industry marketing.

Last edited by Aristophanes; 02-24-2011 at 11:05 AM.
02-24-2011, 11:22 AM - 1 Like   #374
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
BTW I've trademarked Sudsy Kitty. It's no longer a soap. It's a beer. I'll use the Bavarian brewing method. Apparently it's a legal "standard"...somewhere. Hard to find amongst all that beer industry marketing.
....
And so went the opening salvos in what became the Intergalactic Trademark War between Sudsy Kitty Bath Products, GmbH and Sudsy Kitty Bavarian Kool-Aid, ApS.

In the years that followed, all soap ingredients including sodium tallowate, sodium cocoate or sodium palm kernelate, water, sodium chloride, sodium silicate, magnesium sulfate, and fragrance were embargoed by the Kingdom of Denmark, and all beer ingredients such as wheat, barley, water, hops, yeast, and coriander where sanctioned by the Federal Republic of Germany.

Sudsy Kitty Bath Products was finally, in late March of 2020, renamed to skb_p. Following litigation by SocKet Buffer Pointer, they became the Bradley, Bradley and Bradley Financial Collegiate Swimclub. Several members fled the group after rumours about translucent mirrors, following which it was renamed to Bradley Financial Collegiate Swim Institute, and then just Brad. Brad opened a donut shop in downtown Berlin and started selling fishsticks. This business unfortunately failed due to the aforementioned sanctions affecting the supply of beer batter. So Sudsy was bitten in the end by his own tale.

The End

We now open the floor, for questions.

Last edited by Michael Barker; 02-24-2011 at 11:44 AM.
02-24-2011, 11:29 AM   #375
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Until this thread I was unaware that m43 is now the "de facto mirrorless standard" for the industry. For 40 years I had wrongly assumed it was Leica. Silly me. I feel honoured to be so informed. Good thing for "News & Rumors" sections. Almost missed that nugget.
Way to demonstrate your inability to comprehend written text.

Noone here said that m43 is the de facto mirrorless standard.

Except you, just now.
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