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02-24-2011, 11:48 AM   #376
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QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Barkowski Quote
....
And so went the opening salvos in what became the Intergalactic Trademark War between Sudsy Kitty Bath Products, GmbH and Sudsy Kitty Bavarian Kool-Aid, ApS.

In the years that followed, all soap ingredients including sodium tallowate, sodium cocoate or sodium palm kernelate, water, sodium chloride, sodium silicate, magnesium sulfate, and fragrance were embargoed by the Kingdom of Denmark, and all beer ingredients such as wheat, barley, water, hops, yeast, and coriander where sanctioned by the Federal Republic of Germany.

Sudsy Kitty Bath Products was finally, in late March of 2020, renamed to skb_p. Following litigation by SocKet Buffer Pointer, they became the Bradley, Bradley and Bradley Financial Collegiate Swimclub. Several members fled the group after rumours about translucent mirrors, following which it was renamed to Bradley Financial Collegiate Swim Institute, and then just Brad. Brad opened a donut shop in downtown Berlin and started selling fishsticks. This business unfortunately failed due to the aforementioned sanctions affecting the supply of beer batter. So Sudsy was bitten in the end by his own tale.

The End

We now open the floor, for questions.
lmao excellent

02-24-2011, 12:01 PM   #377
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@juu:
And you fail yet again to tell us which kind of standard it is. There aren't that many possibilities, you know?

"That's a strawman again. They cannot join m43 because that would be a "downgrade" but they can do a 2.5x CF sensor and that would be cool? lol talk about hypocrisy (or at least making false implications)." - no, your message is a strawman.
Joining m4/3 of course means choosing this mirrorless system/format instead of an APS-C (or larger) one. People would expect them to eventually give up completely on DSLRs, as Olympus itself is doing. In other words, a downgrade.
Making an interchangeable lens compact has no impact whatsoever, since it's not meant to replace, nor does it compete with their DSLRs.

I can think of Pentax begging Olympus to let them using the "standard"... NOT.
02-24-2011, 12:10 PM   #378
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
... and you apparently disagreeing with that saying m43 is a system, not a standard.

That is what the argument is about...
I decisively proved that m43 is a 100% Olympus-owned "system" by their own patents, trademarks, and copyrights. It is only called a "standard" by them in their marketing lingo and press releases, all also 100% owned by Olympus (and not even by Panasonic!).

Any standard" there is a marketing description and a spec sheet as proprietary as any other lens mount with a spec sheet. k-mount is a standard, but without Pentax marketing and manufacturing...?

QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Way to demonstrate your inability to comprehend written text.

Noone here said that m43 is the de facto mirrorless standard.

Except you, just now.
QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
In case of m43 it is the closest to a widely used 'de facto' mirrorless standard, although NEX could catch up to it in that regard.
And juu, yes, you *did* call m43 a de facto mirrorless standard. Read what you write, reap what you sow.

juu, please enlighten us to which standard m43 is adhering to besides one created and approved by Olympus?

Last edited by Aristophanes; 02-24-2011 at 12:15 PM.
02-24-2011, 12:56 PM   #379
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
@juu:
And you fail yet again to tell us which kind of standard it is. There aren't that many possibilities, you know?
It's a technical standard shared between a limited number of companies.

QuoteQuote:
"That's a strawman again. They cannot join m43 because that would be a "downgrade" but they can do a 2.5x CF sensor and that would be cool? lol talk about hypocrisy (or at least making false implications)." - no, your message is a strawman.
Joining m4/3 of course means choosing this mirrorless system/format instead of an APS-C (or larger) one. People would expect them to eventually give up completely on DSLRs, as Olympus itself is doing. In other words, a downgrade.
Making an interchangeable lens compact has no impact whatsoever, since it's not meant to replace, nor does it compete with their DSLRs.

I can think of Pentax begging Olympus to let them using the "standard"... NOT.
So again, to recap, Pentax choosing a 2.5x CF sensor is completely fine in your and Aristophanes book, and something you look forward to, while them choosing a 2x CF sensor would be a terrible downgrade.

Oh what a difference ~20% CF reduction makes...

Do I understand you correctly? Or is it only Aristophane's opinion which you do not share?


Last edited by juu; 02-24-2011 at 01:07 PM.
02-24-2011, 01:02 PM   #380
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
It is only called a "standard" by them in their marketing lingo and press releases,
And by you in your posts #366 and #357 in this thread.

QuoteQuote:
all also 100% owned by Olympus (and not even by Panasonic!).
Actually, you haven't proven anything of the kind, and I'm sure you are not privy to the intellectual property agreements between Olympus and Panasonic, so your opinion on this carries little to no meaning.

QuoteQuote:
And juu, yes, you *did* call m43 a de facto mirrorless standard. Read what you write, reap what you sow.
You really need to learn to read and understand what is and isn't being said.

You've basically displayed serious comprehension problems three times in this thread already.

QuoteOriginally posted by juu:
In case of m43 it is the closest to a widely used 'de facto' mirrorless standard, although NEX could catch up to it in that regard.
Please note the bolded phrase there. Try to understand what it means and what it doesn't mean.

For example:
* Just because wolves are genetically the closest animals to dogs does not make them dogs.
* Just because Venus is the closest planet to Earth does not mean that they are the same.

Shall I go on?

It is really difficult to have a meaningful written discussion with a person who's not good at reading and understanding what is written. We had to spend countless posts discussing your confusion between volumes and net sales (and you still haven't provided any proof for your claim of the "massive DSLR unit volume increases") - will we now have to do the same for you to (hopefully) understand the semantic difference between "is" and "is the closest to"?

Or shall I give you the benefit of doubt and consider that perhaps you're just bent on purposely misunderstanding what I write, if you perceive it suits your purposes?

Last edited by juu; 02-24-2011 at 03:11 PM.
02-24-2011, 01:10 PM   #381
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See, you get tied up in a meeting having your ass kicked by a client for six hours, and you miss all the fun.

QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Barkowski Quote
Making the viewfinder large enough would go a long way to letting EVF replace OVF. And, while we're at it, can we please put it in the "rangefinder" position, on the corner?
Amen. Welcome to PF, BTW.

QuoteOriginally posted by sjwaldron Quote
So it might be a "fun" camera/toy at least. It would have to be pretty cheap though if they are not going toward the quality aspect.
That could well fit with Hoya's recent Swatch-like approach to the p&s market, and more power to them. But I have to say that 'fun' certainly doesn't sound like Nikon's cuppa. So serious!

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Until this thread I was unaware that m43 is now the "de facto mirrorless standard" for the industry. For 40 years I had wrongly assumed it was Leica. Silly me. I feel honoured to be so informed. Good thing for "News & Rumors" sections. Almost missed that nugget.
Whew! ;^) But seriously; disregarding Samsung, there would seem to be two um, camps emerging in the MILC world. Pentax might do well to attract attention to it by supplying lenses & bodies to one or both. Possibly Sony would be the more likely partner, given that if anything Olympus already occupies the Pentax-like spot in the 43 camp. Certainly Pentax's bodies would be a welcome alternative to Sony's ergonomics.

P.S. The CanCon ratio is off the charts on this thread.
02-24-2011, 02:06 PM   #382
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
It's a technical standard shared between a limited number of companies.
But if we're to accept such standards in our discussion, every mount on the market it's a "technical standard". And we're back to square one.

QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
So again, to recap, Pentax choosing a 2.5x CF sensor is completely fine in your and Aristophanes book, and something you look forward to, while them choosing a 2x CF sensor would be a terrible downgrade.

Oh what a difference ~20% CF reduction makes...

Do I understand you correctly? Or is it only Aristophane's opinion which you do not share?
Continuing with the strawman? I explained IMO quite clearly which of them directly competes with DSLRs and which one is just a glorified compact - but it looks like you're unwilling to read.
Btw, I don't care at all about the NC-1 or whatever it's called, so I don't "look forward to" it. Well, that's why it's called a strawman...
02-24-2011, 02:12 PM   #383
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite:
But if we're to accept such standards in our discussion, every mount on the market it's a "technical standard".
With the distinction that only m43 is fully supported by multiple companies.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I explained IMO quite clearly which of them directly competes with DSLRs and which one is just a glorified compact
So let's see if I understand your position right:
* 2.5x CF camera would be "just a glorified compact"
* a m43 camera would compete with DSLRs?

Please either confirm or state clearly what your position is, as it so far has been anything but clear.

02-24-2011, 02:22 PM   #384
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QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
P.S. The CanCon ratio is off the charts on this thread.
there does seem to be a large number of Canadians on the forum relative to our population, Aussies as well.
02-24-2011, 02:46 PM   #385
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@juu:
Oops, my mistake. I was thinking about the rumored NC-1, which has a crop factor of 5.something - much, much less than 2.5x. In fact I was stupidly applying the 2.5x crop factor to APS-C... thus, the "glorified compact".
You have my apologies; even more so since I've called your arguments "strawman".

Now, to (correctly) answer your question: of course there isn't much difference between 2x and 2.5x.
However, an even smaller (a bigger downgrade, if you wish) crop factor could help to better differentiate between the "mirrorless amateurish stuff" and the "serious tools". It's a risky game which reminds me about the 4/3 story (in the end, as you know the smaller sensor was a serious drawback - mostly because they couldn't get the same technology as the slightly bigger APS-C sensor).
Even then, if they can grab a suitable sensor I'd like this approach better. Such a system won't replace the DSLR line (but complement it); and it would never gave the wrong message, i.e. "we failed so we're forced to join our competition".
But it's very likely we won't find the answer; for all we know, Pentax could make that useless "glorified compact" instead.
02-24-2011, 03:04 PM   #386
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Kunzite, no worries. I see your position now and I think it has merit. Positioning is a non-exact game, and, hopefully, soon we will see what moves Pentax has decided to make.

So what CF do you think Pentax should choose (assuming larger than 1.5)?
02-24-2011, 03:07 PM   #387
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Since this discussion has gone completely off topic and is starting to get nasty, I thought that I'd toss a unicorn in here:


02-24-2011, 03:32 PM   #388
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juu: That's a difficult question.
APS-C should be the favourite: best sensors for good prices. In the distant future, it could completely replace the DSLR line; OTOH we could see lots of "K-mount is dead" the instant it's launched.
Maybe I'd go with the 2.5x (if and only if a good sensor supply can be secured) - less "future proof", but better to differentiate from the K-mount. I'm not sure, there are risks in either approach.
A 5.6x crop... that would be completely useless, IMO. Which means, they're doing it

I'm ruling out joining a competitor's system as I strongly believe Pentax should follow it's own path.
02-24-2011, 03:37 PM   #389
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm ruling out joining a competitor's system as I strongly believe Pentax should follow it's own path.
That's where we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think, unfortunately, Pentax isn't strong enough and is coming too late to blaze their own path successfully (and by that I mean - gain enough market share to make the mount long-term profitable). There's a bit of a catch-22 in that the formats with the best sensor availability already have strong mirrorless competition (including from the guys they'd have to buy sensors from!), except for very small (as rumoured, and with the limitations noted by you) or very big (FF, which would be very cool actually, but perhaps the market isn't ready for EVFs to such a degree).

I think from the vendors who haven't already launched mirrorless, only Canon and Nikon are strong enough to have a reasonable chance of doing it alone successfully, and even then it's not a given unless they act soon.

Last edited by juu; 02-24-2011 at 03:45 PM.
02-24-2011, 03:49 PM   #390
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Well, it depends on how they would do it. A "me too" approach would most likely fail; but it's not the only one.
I doubt it's too late for Canikon, or Pentax for that matter. For all we know, m4/3 could disappear completely in the not-so-distant future - while a yet unknown system could prevail.
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