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02-25-2011, 12:13 PM   #406
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QuoteOriginally posted by glanglois Quote
If Pentax were to adopt the Sony E mount for a new mirrorless line, it creates a symbiotic relationship in which Pentax helps fill the E mount lens lineup (good for both companies) and Sony has a sustained home for sensor production (good for both companies).
This alignment is the one I think makes more sense than joining the 43 camp. Hoya (and perhaps Nikon) have a vested interest in Sony doing well because of the sensors. For all of the worry about Hoya selling Pentax gear to someone else's sta^H^H^H system, Hoya is already in that game. They sell to Sony's sensors. If Sony stopped selling them to Hoya, Hoya would have to rely on someone else's sensors. They admitted as much when they said that they needed an electronics partner. Panasonic wouldn't seem to need Pentax. My bet's increasingly on Sony.

The alignment with Sony would also expose an awful lot of people to the Pentax brand. Especially if Sony allows Hoya to make a Pentax body for the E-mount to diversify their offerings.

QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
It took Pentax how long to repackage a plastic version of the cheap 35mm prime?
Yeah. All of this discussion seems to suppose that Hoya can field multiple camera products well beyond what they're currently doing. Having thought about a possible place for the Pentax line in 43, I'm not so sure that they'd be more than a marginal player. As for going it alone, they have neither the engineering experience or the production muscle at this point (I'm guessing). That said...

QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
Go completely the opposite direction, release a full frame EVIL, shoved into the K-x/K-r platform.
I wouldn't need all those megapixels, but that design would have lots of appeal for reasons we've all discussed. And it would certainly shake things up again.

I really hope that this 2.5x thing is a fixed-lens camera. Something like the Ricoh GX200 perhaps (without all of the OS/software crashes).

02-25-2011, 12:33 PM   #407
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
"This is me, beating my dead horse." - junyo, what's with the false quoting? Should I start randomly inserting text you haven't written in your quotes from now on?

Other than that, I agree with most of what you say, and I like the FF K-mount EVIL idea, however, I'm not sure the market will like it. We will have the traditionalists claiming "we waited 15 years for a FF Pentax DSLR and now they insult us by producing an EVIL; EVFs will never replace OVFs; and so forth" and the modernists claiming that "EVIL is all about register distance, Pentax just doesn't get it, this thing is too huge".
I was referring to myself, as I've made that proposal several times. I wasn't attempting to quote you, except, where i actually quoted you verbatim.

Edit:
I see, I closed a tag badly. Mea culpa.
02-25-2011, 12:56 PM   #408
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
With the distinction that only m43 is fully supported by multiple companies.
Perhaps on a Pentax forum you would be well-advised to remove keyboard from mouth and check out the history of the k-mount and all the suppliers who have "supported" the mount?

Just maybe?

Pentax K mount - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"ONLY m43 is FULLY supported by MULTIPLE companies" eh?

Or m-mount?

Leica M mount - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And as for the Four Thirds system being patented solely by Olympus:

United States Patent: 6910814

43 is a "system" patented by Olympus, licensed to a group of companies by Olympus, who call themselves 43, and within which they have a subsidiary variant of 43 called m43 which sets its own internal "standard" and is closed unless you knock on their door and say pretty please and have a big bag of $$$. That is why one obtains a patent in business after all.

Joining the m43 whatever-you-want-to-call-it means paying your competitor to be part of his club. In this case Olympus. Same for e-mount (Sony, which is a closed system). Or NX-mount (Samsung). For Pentax any of those options means killing its installed base of k-mount users. Nor I suspect will they force their k-mount adherents to downgrade to an m43 sensor standard. Suddenly every Limited lens buyer from the last decade bolts to Canon amidst the complete destruction of brand loyalty.

Lens mount loyalty (LML) is what creates the interchangeable lens market and brands therein. I suspect Pentax may be creating a 2.5 crop MILC in tacit agreement with Nikon (sharing sensor supply from Sony again) like they did with Auto 110. This will buy them time to transition their APS-C to whatever...MILC...pellicle....who knows?
02-25-2011, 01:33 PM   #409
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Ah, it's you again. Taking something out of the context, setting up a strawman, still failing miserably to make a point.

a) The topic of the discussion is mirrorless standards
b) By "fully" supported I mean by producing both lenses and bodies which support AF. In the context of the discussion of mounts Pentax should support for their EVIL, mounts which don't support AF like M-mount are quite irrelevant.

Are there any modern mounts besides m43 for which multiple companies currently produce bodies (supporting AF)?

And, yeah, I have no problem whatsoever referring to the original K-mount and Leica M-mount as standards and yeah they were supported by multiple companies. Go bonkers. So what?


Last edited by juu; 02-25-2011 at 01:56 PM.
02-25-2011, 08:26 PM   #410
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Ah, it's you again. Taking something out of the context, setting up a strawman, still failing miserably to make a point.

a) The topic of the discussion is mirrorless standards
M-mount is mirrorless. It has been since 1954. The topic of discussion is actually sensor size for Pentax EVIL.

It says so in the title.

QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
b) By "fully" supported I mean by producing both lenses and bodies which support AF. In the context of the discussion of mounts Pentax should support for their EVIL, mounts which don't support AF like M-mount are quite irrelevant.

Are there any modern mounts besides m43 for which multiple companies currently produce bodies (supporting AF)?

And, yeah, I have no problem whatsoever referring to the original K-mount and Leica M-mount as standards and yeah they were supported by multiple companies. Go bonkers. So what?
Now you're trying to drag an entire discussion into your very narrowly defined terms like AF-compatibility. Who made you architect?

QuoteQuote:
mounts which don't support AF like M-mount are quite irrelevant.
Why?

How is this any different from Schneider or Cosina who typically produce only MF lenses and are now licensees of m43? Isn't MF their brand appeal?

As many will prefer an eye-level VF and many still prefer MF (especially those willing to pay $9,000 for an M9 body only) what's the point of such orthodoxy and doctrine? The market is large and can accommodate many preferences.

And a major feature of Pentax has been its backwards compatibility for non-AF lenses; the whole lens mount loyalty which has sustained them in the first place.

No one has restricted compatibility to AF lenses but you. The "context of the discussion" is sensor size--says so in the title. m43 is smaller. It has less IQ compared to APS-C for which k-mount has a solid lens array. Any Pentax move to EVIL will be to preserve their APS-C IQ and not downgrade to m43. They may pull an Auto 110 trying to take share away from the superzoom/G12/high-end sort of compact range, but will do so so as not to cannibalize their APS-C DSLR base providing them by far the bulk of their gross revenues.

As I stated earlier, the core of Pentax's margins is the Limited lens buyer and any downgrade to a smaller sensor for the established lens line would destroy the brand's customer base, right where the bulk of profits are made.

m43 is a "standard' no more unique than k-mount in 1975 or m-mount in 1954 save that royalties go to Olympus. It's only difference in the digital world is it uses an inferior sensor to APS-C. If the choice is an inferior sensor or keeping its Limited crowd it seems Pentax's decision is obvious.
02-26-2011, 04:41 AM   #411
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
As I stated earlier, the core of Pentax's margins is the Limited lens buyer and any downgrade to a smaller sensor for the established lens line would destroy the brand's customer base, right where the bulk of profits are made.
What makes you say that that's the bulk of Pentax's profits, Aristophanes?

It's interesting to see that Sony's vowed to ditch the mirror and pentaprism/mirror across their whole line of (now-ex) DSLR's. Rumours of the death of the OVF would seem to have been, if anything, under-estimated.
02-26-2011, 04:47 AM   #412
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The topic of discussion is actually sensor size for Pentax EVIL.

It says so in the title.
We are 400+ posts into the discussion so it has at times moved onto other, related topics. I'm surprised you haven't noticed, but perhaps I shouldn't be.

QuoteQuote:
Now you're trying to drag an entire discussion into your very narrowly defined terms like AF-compatibility. Who made you architect?
Are you seriously implying that Pentax would release a new mirrorless system which wouldn't support AF?

QuoteQuote:
How is this any different from Schneider or Cosina who typically produce only MF lenses and are now licensees of m43? Isn't MF their brand appeal?
No, MF is mostly their limitation and one which means they only sell to a narrow niche (except for video lenses which is a different story).

QuoteQuote:
the core of Pentax's margins is the Limited lens buyer
Source? Otherwise I have to assume it's another thing you just made up.

QuoteQuote:
If the choice is an inferior sensor or keeping its Limited crowd it seems Pentax's decision is obvious.
If the choice is a slightly smaller sensor or not being able to support AF it seems Pentax's decision is obvious.

Now BTW this is your cue to say "Leica M9 sells for $7000 therefore if Pentax could build a FF M-mount EVIL they could sell it for $5000 and PROFIT!". Which I agree with, but I don't think they can build a FF M-mount EVIL that they could sell for $5000 simply because of the difficulty in procuring sensors of the necessary characteristics (offset microlenses, etc.).

Last edited by juu; 02-26-2011 at 06:12 AM.
02-26-2011, 07:14 AM   #413
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote

If the choice is a slightly smaller sensor or not being able to support AF it seems Pentax's decision is obvious.
That is a straw man. They are not mutually incompatible.

If Sony and Samsung can support AF on mirrorless APS-C so can Pentax. Or pellicle which may be a very viable option given that the Sony A55 is very close in size to the GH2. AF backwards compatibility is viable for DA-FA-F lenses with a coupler. It's also an opportunity to sell new lenses, but any mount Pentax goes to for any mirrorless/pellicle system alongside and maybe eventually replacing DLSR's will require backwards compatibility with Pentax's crown jewels on k-mount. Anything else will trigger a cost-effective brand switching option for current Pentaxians and the destruction of brand loyalty.

What current Pentaxian wants the equivalent of Olympus 14-35 f2 zoom only realize that for all its size and expense, it is just a 28-70 f4 because the sensor is compromised? It's a race to the bottom with lesser photographic range and quality. Go bonkers!

Just because you switched to m43 and its inferior sensor, doesn't mean Pentax will, no mater how much you lobby for it out of buyer's remorse and a fundamental misunderstanding that it's a closed format and not any different a "standard" than any other mount with patents and royalties!

02-26-2011, 08:04 AM   #414
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
If Sony and Samsung can support AF on mirrorless APS-C so can Pentax.
AFAIK the support for AF on most legacy lenses is quite weak (it is slow). Only lenses designed for mirrorless (and thus CDAF) have decent AF support.

Now, it could be that Pentax can overcome this issue, at least for K-mount SDM lenses. Or it could be wishful thinking.

QuoteQuote:
What current Pentaxian wants the equivalent of Olympus 14-35 f2 zoom only realize that for all its size and expense, it is just a 28-70 f4 because the sensor is compromised?
Compromised? What choice of words. Which would mean that APSC is "compromised" as compared to FF (as you did multiply by 2 here). Which means you've basically just called Pentax's entire current camera range "compromised". If you feel that way, why do you hang out here?

QuoteQuote:
It's a race to the bottom with lesser photographic range and quality. Go bonkers!
Will you return with this quote if Pentax announces a 2.5x or lower CF EVIL?

Also, you are doing a false dichotomy here. Just because Pentax would join m43 for EVIL would not mean they have to necessarily replace their APSC DSLR line with it. While they wouldn't run a m43 EVIL and APSC EVIL at the same time (as the difference between them would be too small), they might eventually do a m43 EVIL and FF EVIL (and thus bracket the APSC EVIL makers).
02-26-2011, 08:15 AM   #415
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
What current Pentaxian wants the equivalent of Olympus 14-35 f2 zoom only realize that for all its size and expense, it is just a 28-70 f4 because the sensor is compromised?
well if we are talking about APS-C then this lens comparising is to make it a 18-46mm/f2.6 or alike lens. So our DA*16-50 is a good match to that. In terms of DOF, but still the oly-zoom can be used with less light, if the sensor would perform equal (haha we win again).

I am curious when this new baby is coming to market. I still think it is a good idea to get along with other in this market.
02-26-2011, 08:31 AM - 1 Like   #416
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
What current Pentaxian wants the equivalent of Olympus 14-35 f2 zoom only realize that for all its size and expense, it is just a 28-70 f4 because the sensor is compromised?
I would, but I guess that just makes me an inferior, compromised photographer.
02-26-2011, 08:39 AM   #417
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
What current Pentaxian wants the equivalent of Olympus 14-35 f2 zoom only realize that for all its size and expense, it is just a 28-70 f4 because the sensor is compromised?
Actually, sounds a lot like the APS-C range of the well-regarded SMC DA 16-45mm f/4. And that's if you buy the idea that the Olympus sensor is two stops worse than the APS-C sensors Pentax is using. I think a lot of people could live with that.
02-26-2011, 09:06 AM   #418
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I would, but I guess that just makes me an inferior, compromised photographer.
Not what I meant. The system cannot economically or technically deliver DOF equivalent to current expectations and past, entrenched aesthetics. And yes, the move to APS from 35 (and 110 for that matter) was always about this compromise, and no, not everyone was/is happy about it. It sunk the original 110 and APS!

m43 shifts towards telecentricity and not everyone wants that compromise, certainly not those who have invested in the DA Ltd's over the last few years. You cannot have the smaller sensor without compromise. Smaller sensors already clip DR. Why make it even worse for Pentaxians by moving to yet an even smaller sensor? Sony and Samsung saw no need and they have far less of an APS-C base than Pentax.
02-26-2011, 09:15 AM   #419
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I would, but I guess that just makes me an inferior, compromised photographer.
QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Actually, sounds a lot like the APS-C range of the well-regarded SMC DA 16-45mm f/4. And that's if you buy the idea that the Olympus sensor is two stops worse than the APS-C sensors Pentax is using. I think a lot of people could live with that.
And a lot won't. At all.

So you think all those people who bought a DA 70/2.4 are going to stay loyal to Pentax who just knocked 2 stop equivalent off their DOF of that $500 lens? And knocked DR down a notch as well?

That's how a brand self-destructs.
02-26-2011, 09:52 AM   #420
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
And a lot won't. At all.

So you think all those people who bought a DA 70/2.4 are going to stay loyal to Pentax who just knocked 2 stop equivalent off their DOF of that $500 lens? And knocked DR down a notch as well?
Err, actually, added to the DOF. Just sayin.
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