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02-27-2011, 04:29 PM   #436
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
I think there certainly are people who would say "Pentax, either you fully support my existing lenses in your upcoming EVIL or I will boycott your products from now on". However, they are a distinct minority and not all will actually follow through on this.

This forum also isn't quite representative of the average Pentax user, as there are way more advanced users, pros and serious enthusiasts here, with extensive lens collections, for whom the issue of backwards compatibility is very important.

Which means that despite some here presenting it as a matter of utmost importance, Pentax may not necessarily view it that way and might view attracting new users to the brand as more important (hence doing a less-than-APSC sensored EVIL).
Exactly. I always amazed at the posts that threaten to switch brands unless Pentax builds a camera whose mount supports 20+ year old lenses. I personally have a few older K and M42 mount lenses, and I would never expect Pentax to make their business decisions based on my being able to use them. Great if they do, but my life is going to go on if they don't. Of course I can use those lenses on the the EP2 and EPL2 via widely available adapters. Additionally I don't have to use the "green button" with them. In fact I practically only use those lenses on M4/3 because of this.

I generally find the DA Limited lenses and the 31, 43, 77 better suited to Pentax's DSLR's.

That said, I don't really have a dog in this fight because I am very satisfied with the Olympus cameras. I'm not sure it would make any sense for me to buy a Pentax EVIL.

02-28-2011, 12:21 AM   #437
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No, people would get angry because their new lenses won't be supported properly (this, and the endless "Pentax is phasing out the K-mount in favour of m4/3" threads that would follow).
A Pentax m4/3 won't have better K-mount compatibility than existing m4/3, NEX or NX cameras. There would be nothing to make pentaxians buy it, instead of the "originals".
Starting from scratch while (giving the impression of) abandoning your own system; that's a great strategy...
02-28-2011, 01:33 AM   #438
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Saw this? Image Sensors World: Sony Announces 12MP, 1.55um Pixel BSI Sensor
02-28-2011, 04:20 AM   #439
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
more advanced users, pros and serious enthusiasts here
..and me in the shallow end....

QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
What I see among the photog's I speak to....
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Prove it.
? Shall I start recording my conversations.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
your theory is simply not borne out by sales data
Not a theory, just an anecdote. Repeated with metronome regularity. But what can I say I traffic with Nikon people.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Minolta became the star with the X700.
A decent body ham-strung by a lackluster meter. I carry one of my two X700's daily, usually fixed at + 1/2 stop.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
P.S. I do not discard the notion that an EVIL small sensor system like Auto 110 is also a possibility for Pentax and/or Nikon. Neither compete well in the high-end compact market, nor superzooms, and an EVIL here may kill 2 birds with 1 stone, like Auto 100 tried to do. These could very well be the "pocket" 2nd system for many.
I hope you're right. And hey, the Nikon camp surely needs a credible CoolPix if all of the grousing is to be believed.

QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
Of course I can use those lenses on the the EP2 and EPL2 via widely available adapters. Additionally I don't have to use the "green button" with them.
There's something wrong here!

QuoteOriginally posted by fikkser Quote
Saw this? Image Sensors World: Sony Announces 12MP, 1.55um Pixel BSI Sensor
Incredible, what they're accomplishing. Is that sensor destined for camera phones?

An interesting site, that. Lots of useful tidbits in there. This one dispels my guess that Hoya could partner with Toshiba at some point; Toshiba seems to be getting out of the imaging sensor business. And poor Kodak.... (good comments on the latter)

02-28-2011, 07:12 AM   #440
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QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
? Shall I start recording my conversations.
QuoteQuote:
Not a theory, just an anecdote. Repeated with metronome regularity. But what can I say I traffic with Nikon people.
I prefer research.

Let's see how the GH2 and Sony A55 are faring against each other, albeit from a limited sample set:

Both released within 1 month of each other.

GH2 is 9mm less deep and 25 paperclips lighter. Lenses marginally smaller.
A55 is MSRP $150 less with kit lens.

Other than that their volume and form factor are very, very similar.

Sony SLT-A55 Review: 1. Introduction: Digital Photography Review
Panasonic DMC-GH2 Preview: 1. Introduction: Digital Photography Review

B&H has a whopping 3 reviews for the GH2:

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2

The Sony A55 has 10x more:

Sony A55

On Amazon the GH2 is at 9 reviews:

Amazon.com: Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 16.05 MP Live MOS Interchangeable Lens Camera with 3-inch Free-Angle Touch Screen LCD and 14-42mm Hybrid Lens (Black): Camera & Photo

While the A55 has 29:

Amazon.com: Sony a55 DSLR Camera with 18-55mm zoom lens: Camera & Photo

The Olympus PEN series does much better than the Panasonics with reviews in the 80's for 1 model, but lack the VF. the Nikon D700 is in the 70's for reviews at B&H.

Is m43 competing with DSLR's for disposable spending or high-end P&S? Are they a 2nd system or a replacements? Hard to say; likely a combination. But DSLR sales are still very, very good, and small DSLR's like the A55 are demonstrating sales competitiveness against the top-of-the-line Panasonic GH2. (And I am a Sony-basher normally)

The older Canon T2i on B&H gets a whopping 543 reviews which, by rough count, is 8x what all the m43 cameras get combined from when m43 first appeared on the market alongside.

There's no compelling sales data to say that the small sensor mirrorless cameras are the only path forward at the expense of APS-C or even smaller DSLR's like the A55 or Pentax K's. They are taking more of a growing overall market, but they appear not to be eating into DSLR sales too much, just marginal growth. Their bigger impact may be on high-end compacts, superzooms, and the Canon G series.

What I see a lot of anecdotally is people doing exactly what they did in the 1970's, 80's and 90's: owning more than 1 system. This is especially true for those who are "prosumer" and drive after-market sales of lenses and accessories. I had MF film, Rollei compact, and Nikon F. When my Nikon got stolen in Africa I picked up a used Minolta from a Cape Town shop and so it goes. I still have a Mamiya MF for b+w.

QuoteQuote:
A decent body ham-strung by a lackluster meter. I carry one of my two X700's daily, usually fixed at + 1/2 stop.
Hah! Me too on the X500. But that's not a lot different than advice here to Pentaxians who gripe about the current Pentax "underexposure" issue and are advise to EV compensate. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

QuoteQuote:
I hope you're right. And hey, the Nikon camp surely needs a credible CoolPix if all of the grousing is to be believed.
Absolutely. And Pentax as well. There's a case to be made for a small sensor MILC (maybe not VF) system/category.
02-28-2011, 07:42 AM   #441
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Starting from scratch while (giving the impression of) abandoning your own system; that's a great strategy...
It's been done before.

Canon did so with EOS.........and it cost them dearly:

Canon EOS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though in Canon's defense they had little choice because the older FD mount had technical compromises hindering lens development. Canon started from a dominant market position and literally paid its top pro photogs to stay loyal through the transition. Pentax has no such luxury; no market headroom. Pentax makes its living with ergonomically compact bodies, stellar Limited primes, and competitive zooms across consumer price points verging into the pro level.

Pentax follows Nikon's philosophy leveraging its lens mount for brand loyalty. Olympus was dying in the AF age and had little choice with digital but to try new systems with partners. That's how 43 came about. That had no choice but to start from scratch, whereas Pentax has exactly the opposite problem.
02-28-2011, 08:07 AM   #442
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
GH2 is 9mm less deep and 25 paperclips lighter. Lenses marginally smaller.
I'm afraid, that doesn't quite tell the full story, especially, as paperclips aren't quite an SI approved unit for mass.

Panasonic GH2 - weight with battery 444g
Olympus 9-18mm f/4-5.6 155g
Panasonic 20mm f/1.7 100g
Panasonic 14-42mm f3.5-5.6 165g
Olympus 40-150mm f/4.0-5.6 190g

Total: 1054g (less than a Canon 1D(s) body)

Sony A55 - weight with battery 500g
Sony SAL-1118 11-18mm F/4.5-5.6 360g
Sony SAL-28F28 28mm f/2.8 185g
Sony SAL-1855 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 210g
Sony SAL-55200-2 55-200mm f/4-5.6 305g

Total: 1560g

As you see, the difference in weight is roughly 1.5 times.

Last edited by juu; 02-28-2011 at 08:17 AM.
02-28-2011, 08:12 AM   #443
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
It's been done before.

Canon did so with EOS.........and it cost them dearly:

Canon EOS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though in Canon's defense they had little choice because the older FD mount had technical compromises hindering lens development. Canon started from a dominant market position and literally paid its top pro photogs to stay loyal through the transition. Pentax has no such luxury; no market headroom. Pentax makes its living with ergonomically compact bodies, stellar Limited primes, and competitive zooms across consumer price points verging into the pro level.

Pentax follows Nikon's philosophy leveraging its lens mount for brand loyalty. Olympus was dying in the AF age and had little choice with digital but to try new systems with partners. That's how 43 came about. That had no choice but to start from scratch, whereas Pentax has exactly the opposite problem.
+1.. back to the OP's question, I don't think Pentax should join m43, whatever sensor size (2.5 crop) SONY can provide... as long as Nikon is using the same, then Pentax's advantage would be trying to fix that in with MILC with the k-mount. I would go for that for traveling as a backup camera. This will be competing in the space with the existing G11/12 and P7000 series cameras.

02-28-2011, 08:23 AM   #444
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QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
I don't think Pentax should join m43, whatever sensor size (2.5 crop) SONY can provide... as long as Nikon is using the same, then Pentax's advantage would be trying to fix that in with MILC with the k-mount.
Because k-mount with 2.5x CF is a great idea while k-mount with a 2x CF is just a terrible one?
02-28-2011, 08:30 AM   #445
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Because k-mount with 2.5x CF is a great idea while k-mount with a 2x CF is just a terrible one?
That's why I don't buy G11/12 or P7000 because the sensor is still too small; on the other hand, the 43 system is still not as attractive (partially the aspect ratio turns me off). I am really hoping that someone would come out with a circular sensor (2.5x CF may be) so I can take photos with any aspect ratio and also not having to turn my camera around for vertical shots.
02-28-2011, 09:02 AM   #446
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
I'm afraid, that doesn't quite tell the full story, especially, as paperclips aren't quite an SI approved unit for mass.

Panasonic GH2 - weight with battery 444g
Olympus 9-18mm f/4-5.6 155g
Panasonic 20mm f/1.7 100g
Panasonic 14-42mm f3.5-5.6 165g
Olympus 40-150mm f/4.0-5.6 190g

Total: 1054g (less than a Canon 1D(s) body)

Sony A55 - weight with battery 500g
Sony SAL-1118 11-18mm F/4.5-5.6 360g
Sony SAL-28F28 28mm f/2.8 185g
Sony SAL-1855 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 210g
Sony SAL-55200-2 55-200mm f/4-5.6 305g

Total: 1560g

As you see, the difference in weight is roughly 1.5 times.
All you've proved is the heavier system (actually for sale on B&H and Amazon) is selling reasonably well, gets good reviews, and has far, far more consumer reviews than the flagship GH2.

2010 Camera of the Year: Sony A55 | Photography - PopPhoto.com Offers Camera Reviews and Exclusive Photo Tips

You get a bigger, better sensor and full backwards compatibility with Sony's lens line-up (not the greatest, but better than m43's record with 43). Maybe that justifies bigger glass? Apparently in the market this is working.

My gut feeling is that price has more to do with all this than specs, which is why the GH2 is always on backorder at $1,000/kit and the A55 is on shelves everywhere at a much more approachable $850/kit, and why Nikon and Canon continue to pump out low-end DSLR's increasing their sales volumes. m43 lenses are a bit pricier and that has a definite after-market impact and a knock for sure against the 500 grams (or paper-clips...or whatever). Price will trump mass, like all things to a reasonable limit.

I simply cannot believe I am defending Sony
02-28-2011, 09:13 AM   #447
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Because k-mount with 2.5x CF is a great idea while k-mount with a 2x CF is just a terrible one?
Who says this system will replace the current k-mount DSLR's?

It's been proposed in addition to.

micro-k, APS-C k, and 654D "k" is 3 ILC systems for different market segments, playing to Pentax's formidable lens design strengths while keeping the installed base happy.

Personally, from what I have seen of Sony's pellicle I'd be very happy to see that as a go-forward for Pentax. Very ideal for the DA Ltd's. Keep the k-mount. Keeps the VF. Keeps the compact body. No sensor downgrade to m43. Probably cheaper and more reliable. Cost vs. patent trail may be the main stumbling block, that and constant AF video lenses.

For the 2nd time amidst all this speculation: I simply cannot believe I am defending Sony
02-28-2011, 09:59 AM   #448
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Flickr has a huge amount of data on camera trends. Worth a look if you are interested in the increase in use of µ4/3 cameras.
Flickr: Camera Finder: Sony
02-28-2011, 10:21 AM   #449
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QuoteOriginally posted by MDegri Quote
Flickr has a huge amount of data on camera trends. Worth a look if you are interested in the increase in use of µ4/3 cameras.
Flickr: Camera Finder: Sony

I for one don't think that flickr is representative of camera usage at all. Most people don't even bother with flickr account.... now that they have picasa, especially when it comes to 'paying' account most of them opt for the latter.
02-28-2011, 10:28 AM   #450
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QuoteOriginally posted by MDegri Quote
Flickr has a huge amount of data on camera trends. Worth a look if you are interested in the increase in use of µ4/3 cameras.
Flickr: Camera Finder: Sony

Sadly crappy Kodak, HP cameras and Nokia cell phone cameras are apparently more popular than Pentax (ranked 11th by brand)
it would be nice if you could look at slr popularity etc, it is limited in how you can break it out
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