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03-04-2011, 06:04 AM   #526
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
I've shared some comparison shots (although one hadn't loaded fully) here:
Comparison
I see your point. Having looked at this twice, I don't see any difference that would apply to the stuff I do, which is usually ISO 400-800...

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
So if your target is P&S people who want some fashion splash, a small MILC with 2.x crop sensor in pretty colours will fit the bill nicely, because Thom Hogan knows nothing about what sells cameras to teenage girls in Tokyo.
Forget the teenage girls. Those cameras are being marketed to adults. Teenage girls in Japan practically go through life with their mobile phones glued to their hands, you rarely see any with a camera. At the same time, the cutesy/glitsy/colorful cameras are a hit with a broad range of adults. In Japan you'll see people who've fixed sequins to their DSL....

03-04-2011, 07:13 AM   #527
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
That are a lot of people who would buy a small system, and even a 2,5x crop sensor gives them a huge step forward in image quality.
Yes, compared to 1/1.7" 5.5x crop cameras such as LX5, etc, because of both ISO ability and diffraction. Not directing the following at you, just expanding on what you said:

As well it would provide a huge step forward from 1/1.7" compacts in terms of depth of field flexibility, as long as they can make the lenses close to the speeds we get on APS-C ... (admittedly it would be hard to get the same speed for decent price). Examples, using my pie-in-the-sky lenses:

(assuming 2.5x has a 0.012 circle of confusion (0.03/2.5))

2.5x crop 21mm f/2.8 vs. APS-C 35mm f/2.4
At 8 feet: 3 ft DOF vs. 1.5 ft
At 4 feet: 8 inches vs. 4 inches

2.5x crop 42mm f/3.2 vs. APS-C 70mm f/2.4
At 4 feet: 2.4 inches vs 1 inch
At 8 feet: 9 inches vs 4 inches

So around twice the DOF of APS-C, which is still very flexible and provides ability to blur background and appreciate bokeh at normal-ish focal lengths and usual interpersonal distances with reasonably small, cheap lenses. With a 5.5x crop on the other hand, the DOF at portrait distances and focal lengths relative to an interior environment is effectively inflexible.

And, the 2.5x format would have an advantage over APS-C: when deep DOF is desired and 35mm-equiv focal length kept constant, you don't have to stop down so much and therefore you should be able to use f/2.8 when you'd normally need f/5.6 for example, allowing a faster shutter speed and/or lower ISO.

The maximum focal length for a hyperfocal distance that catches everything at f/4 would be around 45mm-e* (18mm) for 2.5x crop cameras, while with APS-C cameras it is 35mm-e (23mm) and with FF cameras it is 28mm. This enables taking handheld, foreground-inclusive landscapes with a more natural perspective and reduces the need for wide-angle lenses. All these things can fit with a slight modification of style.

This would truly be a bridge format that is unique enough not to cannibalize the pro/semi-pro/enthusiast APS-C line, and powerful enough to convince the size-sensitive and price-sensitive users to invest in a system for the first time and start buying a lens every year instead of a new P&S.

I guess that's enough beating a dead horse, though :-o And, I'm not preaching to the choir in this forum, since the great mass of P&S and mirrorless users are elsewhere.

Is a small 2.5x crop 21mm f/2.8 possible? I say yes, only because today we can compensate for CA in camera. It will have all the deficiencies of a 35mm/1.8 DC but you won't see them.

*mm-e: 35mm-equivalent

Last edited by Michael Barker; 03-04-2011 at 09:05 AM.
03-04-2011, 09:07 AM   #528
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QuoteOriginally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden Quote
It was to keep the same registration distance as the m42, and thereby enable a simple conversion of the whole lens produciton line from m42 to K mounts without having to make up new optical designs.
QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
I see your point. Having looked at this twice, I don't see any difference that would apply to the stuff I do, which is usually ISO 400-800...



Forget the teenage girls. Those cameras are being marketed to adults. Teenage girls in Japan practically go through life with their mobile phones glued to their hands, you rarely see any with a camera. At the same time, the cutesy/glitsy/colorful cameras are a hit with a broad range of adults. In Japan you'll see people who've fixed sequins to their DSL....
How can one "forget the teenage girls"? Consumer trends picked up as teenagers are very positive trackers for adult spending:

Dekotora photo galleries ~ Pink Tentacle

A 2.5 crop MILC will succeed if:

1) It has a decent price
2) It has a very good price
3) The price is attractive
4) It looks more like an accessory and less like a black brick (sequins optional), but the looks are deceiving
5) It has 3-4 zooms and 2-3 primes (one a macro "normal", one a portrait, one a street/wide)...with a lens roadmap
6) IQ is good up to 400 ISO, OK at 800
7) Option for a small external swivel, bounce flash (to get over the ISO hump) maybe as part of a grip
8) Very good video options including AF on at least 1 zoom lens
9) Requires SR
10) Needs a solid marketing campaign...with aforementioned lens roadmap

Did I mention the price factor?
03-04-2011, 09:20 AM   #529
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
How can one "forget the teenage girls"? Consumer trends picked up as teenagers are very positive trackers for adult spending:

Dekotora photo galleries ~ Pink Tentacle

A 2.5 crop MILC will succeed if:

1) It has a decent price
2) It has a very good price
3) The price is attractive
4) It looks more like an accessory and less like a black brick (sequins optional), but the looks are deceiving
5) It has 3-4 zooms and 2-3 primes (one a macro "normal", one a portrait, one a street/wide)...with a lens roadmap
6) IQ is good up to 400 ISO, OK at 800
7) Option for a small external swivel, bounce flash (to get over the ISO hump) maybe as part of a grip
8) Very good video options including AF on at least 1 zoom lens
9) Requires SR
10) Needs a solid marketing campaign...with aforementioned lens roadmap

Did I mention the price factor?
in other words the Kenko but colourful and with video and marketing, oh well not the kenko then, hoya doesn't market things

03-04-2011, 09:28 AM   #530
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
in other words the Kenko but colourful and with video and marketing, oh well not the kenko then, hoya doesn't market things
Not kenko - no supporting existing lens mounts!

If there's no existing marketing engine, money goes a long way to solving that these days... pay Charlie Sheen 250,000 USD to tweet about it

P.S. all the comparisons to Auto 110 are silly. In the digital age, the market is much more able to sustain a variety of formats.
03-04-2011, 09:49 AM   #531
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QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Barkowski Quote
Not kenko - no supporting existing lens mounts!

If there's no existing marketing engine, money goes a long way to solving that these days... pay Charlie Sheen 250,000 USD to tweet about it

P.S. all the comparisons to Auto 110 are silly. In the digital age, the market is much more able to sustain a variety of formats.
isn't the Kenko C mount? there are hundreds of lenses out there in C mount mostly crappy but not all of them (16mm cameras and surveillance mostly) there is also a Nikon F to T Adapter slated, and a range of compatible Tokina stuff

this camera is the main reason i can see a Pentax styled on the auto110 as they are sister companies and there are already proven economies from the shared Tokina designs
it's due in the summer supposedly, but my bet is that will be Japan only initially. I hope not myself because that is one small p/s sensor (1/2.3"and would have little value as an upgrade from a point shoot
03-04-2011, 09:50 AM   #532
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QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Barkowski Quote
If there's no existing marketing engine, money goes a long way to solving that these days... pay Charlie Sheen 250,000 USD to tweet about it
Charlie will need it now he is unemployed, would last him a couple of days
03-04-2011, 10:05 AM   #533
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QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Barkowski Quote
Yes, compared to 1/1.7" 5.5x crop cameras such as LX5, etc, because of both ISO ability and diffraction. Not directing the following at you, just expanding on what you said:

As well it would provide a huge step forward from 1/1.7" compacts in terms of depth of field flexibility, as long as they can make the lenses close to the speeds we get on APS-C ... (admittedly it would be hard to get the same speed for decent price). Examples, using my pie-in-the-sky lenses:

(assuming 2.5x has a 0.012 circle of confusion (0.03/2.5))

2.5x crop 21mm f/2.8 vs. APS-C 35mm f/2.4
At 8 feet: 3 ft DOF vs. 1.5 ft
At 4 feet: 8 inches vs. 4 inches

2.5x crop 42mm f/3.2 vs. APS-C 70mm f/2.4
At 4 feet: 2.4 inches vs 1 inch
At 8 feet: 9 inches vs 4 inches

So around twice the DOF of APS-C, which is still very flexible and provides ability to blur background and appreciate bokeh at normal-ish focal lengths and usual interpersonal distances with reasonably small, cheap lenses. With a 5.5x crop on the other hand, the DOF at portrait distances and focal lengths relative to an interior environment is effectively inflexible.

And, the 2.5x format would have an advantage over APS-C: when deep DOF is desired and 35mm-equiv focal length kept constant, you don't have to stop down so much and therefore you should be able to use f/2.8 when you'd normally need f/5.6 for example, allowing a faster shutter speed and/or lower ISO.

The maximum focal length for a hyperfocal distance that catches everything at f/4 would be around 45mm-e* (18mm) for 2.5x crop cameras, while with APS-C cameras it is 35mm-e (23mm) and with FF cameras it is 28mm. This enables taking handheld, foreground-inclusive landscapes with a more natural perspective and reduces the need for wide-angle lenses. All these things can fit with a slight modification of style.

This would truly be a bridge format that is unique enough not to cannibalize the pro/semi-pro/enthusiast APS-C line, and powerful enough to convince the size-sensitive and price-sensitive users to invest in a system for the first time and start buying a lens every year instead of a new P&S.

I guess that's enough beating a dead horse, though :-o And, I'm not preaching to the choir in this forum, since the great mass of P&S and mirrorless users are elsewhere.

Is a small 2.5x crop 21mm f/2.8 possible? I say yes, only because today we can compensate for CA in camera. It will have all the deficiencies of a 35mm/1.8 DC but you won't see them.

*mm-e: 35mm-equivalent
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
How can one "forget the teenage girls"? Consumer trends picked up as teenagers are very positive trackers for adult spending:

Dekotora photo galleries ~ Pink Tentacle

A 2.5 crop MILC will succeed if:

1) It has a decent price
2) It has a very good price
3) The price is attractive
4) It looks more like an accessory and less like a black brick (sequins optional), but the looks are deceiving
5) It has 3-4 zooms and 2-3 primes (one a macro "normal", one a portrait, one a street/wide)...with a lens roadmap
6) IQ is good up to 400 ISO, OK at 800
7) Option for a small external swivel, bounce flash (to get over the ISO hump) maybe as part of a grip
8) Very good video options including AF on at least 1 zoom lens
9) Requires SR
10) Needs a solid marketing campaign...with aforementioned lens roadmap

Did I mention the price factor?
My thoughts on the subject have evolved, thanks to rational posts like these. Thx.

At first I thought that joining M43 would be wise because of the momentum the (non)standard is gaining, but maybe the crop factor is too close after all.

Now 2.5x sounds more plausible from a size and product line perspective, but Pentax barely has enough marketing horsepower for their existing products. I really can't see them launching a new format by themselves with any gusto.

At the end of the day, every decision will have its benefits and compromises. So I'll just save up for a K-5 and sit back and watch...

03-04-2011, 10:20 AM   #534
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
My thoughts on the subject have evolved, thanks to rational posts like these. Thx.
Mine too.

QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
So I'll just save up for a K-5 and sit back and watch...
Similarly, I'm convinced that my film rangefinder will work just fine for another year or two.
03-04-2011, 11:36 AM   #535
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Camera sales data:
Photoscala article

BCN rankings 2010:
BCN rankings

In Japan for 2010, Panasonic had 38.7% mirrorless share, Sony 32.2%, Olympus 29.1%. Which is odd as it leaves exactly nothing for Samsung and Ricoh.

Also, in Japan for 2010, DSLRs have Canon at 32%, Nikon 29.4%, Sony at 13.1%. Which leaves 25.5% for the rest with Pentax hopefully coming in #4.
03-04-2011, 11:47 AM   #536
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
In Japan for 2010, Panasonic has 38.7% mirrorless share, Sony 32.2%, Olympus 29.1%. Which doesn't seem right as it leaves exactly nothing for Samsung and Ricoh.
Ricoh sales should be very low (they rarely appear in BCN Rankings weekly Top 80) and Samsung zitch.

QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Also, in Japan for 2010, DSLRs have Canon at 32%, Nikon 29.4%, Sony at 13.1%. Which leaves 25.5% for the rest with Pentax hopefully coming in #4.
These figures are not for SLRs only, but for all digital cameras with interchangeable lenses (the so-called system cameras), including MILCs. I therefore think Panasonic should come in #4, Olympus being #5 and Pentax #6.
03-04-2011, 11:51 AM   #537
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Ricoh sales should be very low (they rarely appear in BCN Rankings weekly Top 80) and Samsung zitch.
Yes, but it shouldn't be totally zero. I'm sure Ricoh has at least 0.2% market share and unless Samsung didn't even ship any cameras to Japan should also have something.

QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
These figures are not for SLRs only, but for all digital cameras with interchangeable lenses (the so-called system cameras), including MILCs. I therefore think Panasonic should come in #4, Olympus being #5 and Pentax #6.
If that is true, and compact cameras are 25% of 2010 total interchangeable lens cameras (as reported previously) then Panasonic would have 25% * 38.7% = 9.67% and Olympus 7.28% + unknown 4/3 cameras, with Sony NEXes constituting 8%, leaving 5.1% for A-mount Sonies. That might be true, I don't read Japanese. Or it might not, as overlapping categories would be strange.

Also, it should be noted that NEX arrived in May 2010 so did not participate at the start of the year.

Last edited by juu; 03-04-2011 at 12:02 PM.
03-04-2011, 11:52 AM   #538
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QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Barkowski Quote
Not kenko - no supporting existing lens mounts!
Physical mount don't count on mirrorless because you'll need software to talk to sensor and correct the aberrations aplenty a la m43. Could be done in RAW PP but who will expense that reverse engineering feat?

The new lens mount loyalty is not based on hardware bias. Could be c-mount. Who knows?
03-04-2011, 12:01 PM   #539
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Yes, but it shouldn't be totally zero. I'm sure Ricoh has at least 0.2% market share and unless Samsung didn't even ship any cameras to Japan should also have something.
That's entirely possible. Samsung may have a "no compete" clause with Pentax, for example, or sees no need to jump into the turbulent Japanese market.

I seem to recall Hyundai pulled out of auto sales in Japan a few years ago as there is fierce nationalistic loyalties and antagonisms to some brands based on country of origin.
03-04-2011, 12:04 PM   #540
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Yeah, it actually seems likely, Aristophanes, as I didn't find the NX-es on amazon.jp. Someone from Japan could confirm easily. There might be grey market ones but they won't be counted by BCN.

On the Ricohs, perhaps BCN counts them as compacts.
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