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05-17-2011, 09:32 AM   #601
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I take photos, not facts.
8)

All hyperbole aside, one of my former colleagues encountered a tiger in the wild this March. I can't guess what equipment he used in taking the resulting image, and he's not even peripherally concerned with it, apparently.

05-17-2011, 09:43 AM   #602
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
that you did not see it in your pictures does not change the fact that software optics correction bands the noise...
Maybe, but as I said, it is totally irrelevant, as it's not seen in real pictures.

I understand it is your pet issue, and you are perhaps proud of finding it, etc., but since it seems it is only visible at maximum sharpening (+HDR?) which noone ever uses in real post-processing, it's not something I worry about.
05-17-2011, 09:43 AM   #603
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I'll throw m'y 2 cents here.
Personaly I don't care if software can help get better quality.
But... If software become a way to sell crap or average lenses at high price counting on the software to correct for lens defficiencies, then I have a problem.
It is not only a question of principle but also a question of:
1) paying the right price
2) softwAre is always at risk of being not further developped/maintained. And we get screwed.

Otherwise, I don't care much. Rather a question of taste. Mostly the same thing as PSing a picture: how far?
I agree with this. the 20 1.7 isn't cheap by any standard either (I could by a lens that doesn't require all the post for apsc like the DA40 limited for the price - or the DAL35 2.4 for half the price or less) so for my money having to heavily correct in post (automatically or not) and getting artifacts that may or may not affect the image (depending on what the image is from what i can tell - it's always there just not always visible, like some dust blobbies)
05-17-2011, 02:29 PM   #604
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eddie1960, can you show a real image which hasn't been messed with way too much in postprocessing (e.g., by setting sharpening to max) where you see these artifacts?

05-17-2011, 04:13 PM   #605
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I'll throw m'y 2 cents here.
Personaly I don't care if software can help get better quality.
But... If software become a way to sell crap or average lenses at high price counting on the software to correct for lens defficiencies, then I have a problem.
It is not only a question of principle but also a question of:
1) paying the right price
2) softwAre is always at risk of being not further developped/maintained. And we get screwed.

Otherwise, I don't care much. Rather a question of taste. Mostly the same thing as PSing a picture: how far?
That is my view as well. Go ahead and charge premium prices if the optics are top notch in IQ and build but if you're just selling a software-corrected coke bottle lens, the cost had better not approach that of the former.
05-18-2011, 06:55 AM   #606
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
eddie1960, can you show a real image which hasn't been messed with way too much in postprocessing (e.g., by setting sharpening to max) where you see these artifacts?
Given I don't have the camera or lens no i can't i cased myu comment on the link. It's obviously an issue. At points i do shoot high contrast b/w images and it looks like they would be affected. Personally I would only look at a MILC with an apsc sensor (preferably one i could adapt my 20 or so lenses to) If that isn't forthcoming then for small i'll likely go X100 as the focal length and form and function really appeal to me. In reality I am not bothered by the size of the k5/7 after shooting with a k10 and grip they seem tiny to me - i always have my k7 with me and size weight don't bother me, the k10 they did
The artifacts were brought out by a lot of sharpening, but i would not be surprised to see evidence on large prints with a lower level of sharpening.
I've tried the oly and pana in the past and returned both not liking the form (If i had the VF it may have been different with the pana)
05-18-2011, 10:59 AM   #607
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Given I don't have the camera or lens no i can't
Yes, you can. Here are 34 thousand pictures taken with the lens, find some which have the banding:
Fluidr / photos and videos in the "Panasonic Lumix 20mm f1.7 ASPH "pancake"" group sorted by Interestingness

QuoteQuote:
It's obviously an issue.
And if you can't then, sorry, but it's obviously NOT a real issue.
05-18-2011, 11:17 AM   #608
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Yes, you can. Here are 34 thousand pictures taken with the lens, find some which have the banding:
Fluidr / photos and videos in the "Panasonic Lumix 20mm f1.7 ASPH "pancake"" group sorted by Interestingness

And if you can't then, sorry, but it's obviously NOT a real issue.
Sorry I don't like the camera, and am unwilling to pay for inferior optics that have to be corrected in software the same or more than i would pay for comparable fov and better optics in aps c,
if it can be measured it is an issue small or not. m4/3 would be ok as a secondary or a smaller go everywhere if i could find one i liked the handling on, in reality though the sensor doesn't do it for me in the first place. I'd be more than happy to look at an apsc milc with better form/function - so not the Nex system.
Yep there are some good pictures posted on flickr, and fuidr will let you look at them. on the other hand if your image had an issue you likely wouldn't post it would you. so flickr is not a measurement of whether or not this is a flaw. Controlled testing is.

If you are happy with the system hen it's the right camera for you. Having tried it (and also owned 4/3 as well) I just haven't found the one for me (the ricoh modular setup is interesting). I'd personally really like to see a Digital RF that wasn't marketed at $7 grand. no video, more compact, m39/m lens compatibility and va/sv/tav/m controls. High Iso would be nice, but it need not be crazy high like the K5 as there are many very fast lenses in these mounts
otherwise the x100 is still the best i've seen

05-19-2011, 08:16 AM   #609
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Sorry I don't like the camera, and am unwilling to pay for inferior optics that have to be corrected in software the same or more than i would pay for comparable fov and better optics in aps c
To me this is just an old way of thinking. I look at software correction as just one more tool a lens designer can use. It's my understanding that Panasonic simply designed the 20mm to be as sharp as possible without worrying about distortion since they could correct that with software. To me that doesn't mean the 20mm is an inferior lens, it's just a different way of accomplishing the same goal.

I understand some feel as though they are being overcharged for a lens that isn't perfect without correction, but personally, I simply don't care. Use whatever tools are at your disposal to create the best results. I have no issues with the results I see from the 20mm/1.7, and if software correction is the reason they look like that instead of old fashion engineering know-how then oh well. Besides, software isn't free either. Who knows how long it takes them to develop the image correction scripts and processing engines to run it. So you can look at it as you're paying for software engineering instead of mechanical engineering.

It will surprise me if Pentax doesn't also use corrected lenses for their system(s). They already correct minor flaws with their DA lenses after all. They might as well take it one step further and use it as a legitimate design tool when building a digital system from the ground up. That's what I really love about CSC's...there's no legacy to support. I really hope companies give a lot of thought to sensor size for example. There is no reason to make a 35mm 2x3 ratio sensor or even an APS-C sensor. Why not make a 30mm x 20mm sensor for example? That's what bugs me about Panasonic, Sony, and Samsung using in-lens stabilization. To me that is a technology going back to film days. It just makes more sense to move the sensor since you can. I understand video needs in-lens IS, but they can simply make video-centric lenses with it included. Using Panasonic's IS lenses with an Olympus body presents no issues.
05-19-2011, 08:27 AM   #610
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
There is no reason to make a 35mm 2x3 ratio sensor
Here come the square sensor remarks! 8^)

QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
To me that is a technology going back to film days. It just makes more sense to move the sensor since you can.
I expect that this is a requirement of trying to build the tiniest bodies possible. Or perhaps they plan on future sensors with high performance at high ISO's will do away with the need for sensor-based stabilization. A high shutter-speed can be used instead, knowing that the sensor will come up with the goods at any given low-light situation.
05-19-2011, 08:58 AM   #611
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Interesting theory. I'd posit that Sony has responded to the CSC challenge with their pellicle mirror A series. They may be the most technically innovative dSL (no Reflex) cameras around, and they've got the distribution muscle to sell boatloads.
And yet if you look at the resulting shift in the market .. there hasn't really been one. No one else has responded to that they way that all PC manufacturers have moved into the tablet space, for instance.



Of course, I'm less compelled by the iPad than I would be by, say, a digital OM-1.

QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
All hyperbole aside, one of my former colleagues encountered a tiger in the wild this March. I can't guess what equipment he used in taking the resulting image, and he's not even peripherally concerned with it, apparently.
That wasn't very clearly stated. What I meant was that to an increasing degree, the equipment is becoming immaterial. I can only guess that it was a DSLR rather than a u43 camera he used because of the shape of the frame. And I don't care.

So, I'm in the "it's the results that matter" camp, too when it comes to software being used to fix RAW images. These aren't mechanical cameras anymore, they're computers with lenses (with a photocopier's interface). I expect more tricks like that (and this) as time goes on.
05-20-2011, 03:08 PM   #612
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April 2011 market data in Japan
05-20-2011, 04:20 PM   #613
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
What blows me away there is the Nikon D3100 and D90, a new, cheap DSLR and a (very) old DSLR, collectively holding 18.5% of the market, more than all micros combined and then some, especially considering the D7000 is on the same list!

That is brand market punch. Canon right behind.
05-20-2011, 04:28 PM   #614
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
What blows me away there is the Nikon D3100 and D90, a new, cheap DSLR and a (very) old DSLR, collectively holding 18.5% of the market, more than all micros combined and then some, especially considering the D7000 is on the same list!

That is brand market punch. Canon right behind.
1 month's data doesn't really mean much - it's very much driven by what's the latest and greatest, plus what's being heavily discounted at the chain stores (Yodobashi, Bic Camera etc.)

The K-x was in the top 5 for quite a few months when it came out.

Obsolete models are extremely discounted in Japan - I remember when the K20D first came out, one store was selling off their K10D stock for the equivalent of US$400 (exchange rate at that time). I felt kind of sorry holding my K10D which I paid nearly full price for ...
05-21-2011, 04:36 AM   #615
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
Obsolete models are extremely discounted in Japan - I remember when the K20D first came out, one store was selling off their K10D stock for the equivalent of US$400 (exchange rate at that time). I felt kind of sorry holding my K10D which I paid nearly full price for ...
Agreed. That's what I paid for my *istDS in 2006; two years earlier when introduced it had been $1,200+.
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