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06-13-2011, 11:39 AM   #796
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
so I guess one dilemma of the m4/3 is the DOF control.
That was a concern of mine as well, but in all honestly, in real world use I've found little difference using m4/3's & APS-C. The biggest issue with DOF from a 4/3's sensor is with wide angles. It's simply next to impossible to create the look you can get from a full frame camera with a 28mm f/2 for example. However once you get up over 50mm's (again, in full frame terms) m4/3's gives me all the DOF control I need. In-fact, in portrait lens focal lengths I really don't need anything faster than f/2 to get all the DOF control I need.

06-13-2011, 11:46 AM   #797
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I always laugh when I read m4/3's users complain that Panny/Olympus isn't producing lenses fast enough. Soon they'll also have a high grade 12mm f/2 from Olympus. The only real missing links are a portrait prime and a fast zoom. In the case of portrait lenses that duty is easily covered by adapting 50mm manual primes (I use my Pentax SMC-A 50mm/1.4). Plus, Olympus is supposedly on the verge of releasing an auto focus 50mm anyway.
I believe they have every reason to complain about. 12/2 is more of a 24/2.8 which is still not any faster, but will do I guess as a native general purpose lens. a 50mm would be more of a 100/2.8 which would be too small and too long for a standard prime. it would most likely would operate like a telephoto lens.

the Nokton and Leica 25mm would make more sense as a standard prime. still, the issue of aperture speed for the Leica and AF functionality for the Nokton. but if people could live with those, I guess that would be fine.

on the otherhand, there might be trouble considering that the m4/3 would definitely be competing with the APS-C sized MILCs which are competing for the same small camera dimensions, features, cost and market. sensor size, the m4/3 might be at a disadvantage.
06-13-2011, 11:47 AM   #798
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On the E-3 I really wanted a faster 50mm. The 50mm f/2 was every sharp, but F/2 was just not fast enough. Olympus screwed up a lot of ways on the 4/3 system.
06-13-2011, 11:56 AM   #799
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
On the E-3 I really wanted a faster 50mm. The 50mm f/2 was every sharp, but F/2 was just not fast enough. Olympus screwed up a lot of ways on the 4/3 system.
maybe they could build something like the FA31. not really an ultra-fast lens but operates just like one.

06-13-2011, 12:40 PM   #800
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
that's my issue with the m4/3 as of the moment. they mostly offer variable consumer zooms. I just hope they produce more faster or constant aperture and wider lenses inorder to complement the sensor size of the m4/3.
Olympus has some very very tasty F2 zooms for the Four-Thirds format. I am praying and sacrificing small animals to the god of Zuiko that they make M43 versions as well...


QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
aside from that, an improvement on the sensor is a must. with regards to focal length coverage, they are pretty much ok I guess. the fast 25 seems to answer the need but it would somehow most likely operate like a 50/2 lens at best. maybe the Nokton 25 is better, except that it's not AF. so I guess one dilemma of the m4/3 is the DOF control.

These comparison to full frame DOF are kind of silly when you consider the fact that only a very small percentage of photographers currently shoot full frame. Most - like the members of this forum - shoot APS-C and have managed to work around the reduced DOF that APS-C provides. And if you look at sensor sizes, APS-C and M43 are closer in size than many realize:



This helps explain how the latest Panasonic sensors are closing the gap to the latest APS-C sensors.

Besides, DOF is possible with M43




QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
That was a concern of mine as well, but in all honestly, in real world use I've found little difference using m4/3's & APS-C. The biggest issue with DOF from a 4/3's sensor is with wide angles. It's simply next to impossible to create the look you can get from a full frame camera with a 28mm f/2 for example. However once you get up over 50mm's (again, in full frame terms) m4/3's gives me all the DOF control I need. In-fact, in portrait lens focal lengths I really don't need anything faster than f/2 to get all the DOF control I need.
Agreed. Unless bokeh and shallow DOF are a defining part of your personal style, M43 is surprisingly capable, and I wonder how little Pentax will be able to compete with this already-established system. Maybe going much smaller is the right answer after all...
06-13-2011, 01:00 PM   #801
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
a 50mm would be more of a 100/2.8 which would be too small and too long for a standard prime. it would most likely would operate like a telephoto lens.
Yes, this is common knowledge. That's why I said a manual focus 50mm lenses fill the portrait lens gap for m4/3's until they release a native portrait prime. Standard primes aren't an issue on m4/3's (35-50mm full frame equivalent). In-fact they have more options then Pentax has for APS-C. They have 3 excellent options with the Panasonic 20mm/1.7, Panasonic 25mm/1.4, and Voigtlander 25mm/0.95. Then there is also the Olympus 17mm/2.8. However that one is too slow to make any sense to me.

The only fast standard prime Pentax seems to think users need is the $1100 31mm/1.8 limited. I still can't figure out why they never released a 30mm f/1.4 or a 28mm f/1.4 to replace the 43mm f/1.9 if they never plan on making a full frame body.
06-13-2011, 01:24 PM   #802
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I shot with the E-3 for 3+ years and I do feel that the 4/3 sensor is slightly too small. I prefer the 4/3 format and WISH someone would make something other than 3/2. I think if Olympus had gone with a larger 4/3 sensor like 24mm x 18mm that the 4/3 line would have been a pretty big success. M4/3 could have still been brought into production and the larger 4/3 lenses would have still worked.
06-13-2011, 01:26 PM   #803
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I shot with the E-3 for 3+ years and I do feel that the 4/3 sensor is slightly too small. I prefer the 4/3 format and WISH someone would make something other than 3/2. I think if Olympus had gone with a larger 4/3 sensor like 24mm x 18mm that the 4/3 line would have been a pretty big success. M4/3 could have still been brought into production and the larger 4/3 lenses would have still worked.
Interesting. What about the sensor size did you not like?

06-13-2011, 01:34 PM   #804
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Olympus has some very very tasty F2 zooms for the Four-Thirds format. I am praying and sacrificing small animals to the god of Zuiko that they make M43 versions as well...





These comparison to full frame DOF are kind of silly when you consider the fact that only a very small percentage of photographers currently shoot full frame. Most - like the members of this forum - shoot APS-C and have managed to work around the reduced DOF that APS-C provides. And if you look at sensor sizes, APS-C and M43 are closer in size than many realize:



This helps explain how the latest Panasonic sensors are closing the gap to the latest APS-C sensors.

Besides, DOF is possible with M43






Agreed. Unless bokeh and shallow DOF are a defining part of your personal style, M43 is surprisingly capable, and I wonder how little Pentax will be able to compete with this already-established system. Maybe going much smaller is the right answer after all...
I'm not sure what you meant by going much smaller John. is it sensor size small or camera size small? in fact, I dunno if the m4/3's would fair better in the MILC race with the introduction and improvement of mirrorless APS-C cameras which offers similar body size and offer compact lenses as well.

for me personally, the interests in m4/3 is more about compact size enthusiast interchangeable lens cameras. they would had probably thought that maybe APS-C is just too bit for such a tiny camera and too expensive. but if we are going to look at it, they are pretty much cost the same and just as small. I'm not sure what m4/3 could offer aside from size factor which doesn't appear to be that much anymore. maybe an innovative feature or lens selection? but that would spike up the price of the m4/3 system. the introduction of the mirrorless APS-C on this market kinda complicated the position of the m4/3 system is sitting in right now. I'm not sure if this would go down to branding.
06-13-2011, 01:50 PM   #805
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Interesting. What about the sensor size did you not like?
I think Olympus failed to produce a unified vision for 4/3 in general. The 2x is a little much most of the time.

The 2x is great wildlife and sports, but Olympus failed to produce an AF system and frame rate to meet the needs of this group. The body was too large and when you compare it to the K-7 you wonder what what Olympus was thinking.

They have the lenses for wildlife & sports. The body. 2x crop. Best WR on the market. BUT not the AF or the higher ISO needed to keep shutter speeds high.

The AF, frame rate, aspect ratio, & Low ISO IQ make it a very good camera for studio work and portraits......BUT they have no good lenses for this. 2X is not very good for this, and who needs a WS body for this?
06-13-2011, 01:51 PM   #806
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
I'm not sure what you meant by going much smaller John. is it sensor size small or camera size small? in fact, I dunno if the m4/3's would fair better in the MILC race with the introduction and improvement of mirrorless APS-C cameras which offers similar body size and offer compact lenses as well.

for me personally, the interests in m4/3 is more about compact size enthusiast interchangeable lens cameras. they would had probably thought that maybe APS-C is just too bit for such a tiny camera and too expensive. but if we are going to look at it, they are pretty much cost the same and just as small. I'm not sure what m4/3 could offer aside from size factor which doesn't appear to be that much anymore. maybe an innovative feature or lens selection? but that would spike up the price of the m4/3 system. the introduction of the mirrorless APS-C on this market kinda complicated the position of the m4/3 system is sitting in right now. I'm not sure if this would go down to branding.
Sorry if I wasn't clear - the "smaller" was in reference to the current line of thinking that at least one of the Pentax EVILs will be considerably smaller than APS-C.

At first I thought that was a bad idea, and talked about Pentax joining M43. But upon further thinking, APS-C and M43 sensors are so similar in size that Pentax might have a tough time differentiating between two product lines built upon nearly identically-sized sensors.

The two electronics giants are now going toe-to-toe in the mirrorless space, shadowing each other on price, form factor, size, etc... While Sony may have a slight edge in IQ, the latest generation of Panasonic sensors have closed the gap considerably, and I'd imagine that purchase decisions will be based on any of a number of factors - price, availability, design, etc... It will be quite a challenge for Pentax to compete in this space unless they come out with something significantly different. A much smaller sensor placed in much smaller cameras with much smaller lenses may do the trick...
06-13-2011, 01:55 PM   #807
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I think Olympus failed to produce a unified vision for 4/3 in general. The 2x is a little much most of the time.

The 2x is great wildlife and sports, but Olympus failed to produce an AF system and frame rate to meet the needs of this group. The body was too large and when you compare it to the K-7 you wonder what what Olympus was thinking.

They have the lenses for wildlife & sports. The body. 2x crop. Best WR on the market. BUT not the AF or the higher ISO needed to keep shutter speeds high.

The AF, frame rate, aspect ratio, & Low ISO IQ make it a very good camera for studio work and portraits......BUT they have no good lenses for this. 2X is not very good for this, and who needs a WS body for this?
It sounds like it wasn't the sensor size per se but rather Olympus' implementation of it? Panasonic has made some significant progress with regards to AF and ISO. My GH2 AF is very fast and ISO1600 is clean. I'm just waiting for Olympus F2 Zuiko HG glass to make my life complete...
06-13-2011, 02:07 PM   #808
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote

The only fast standard prime Pentax seems to think users need is the $1100 31mm/1.8 limited. I still can't figure out why they never released a 30mm f/1.4 or a 28mm f/1.4 to replace the 43mm f/1.9 if they never plan on making a full frame body.
those focal length are just too close for comfort for the FA31, which might cannibalize the potential sales of the FA31. personally, it's not a well thought focal length roadmap. also it was further complicated by the DA LTD's focal length distribution and pricing.
06-13-2011, 02:12 PM   #809
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
It sounds like it wasn't the sensor size per se but rather Olympus' implementation of it? Panasonic has made some significant progress with regards to AF and ISO. My GH2 AF is very fast and ISO1600 is clean. I'm just waiting for Olympus F2 Zuiko HG glass to make my life complete...
It is more an issue with the DR and high ISO that plague the small sensor. Had Olympus made some serious glass (40mm f/1.2) it could have been a different story.

I still think that a larger sensor would have saved the 4/3 system.
06-13-2011, 02:19 PM   #810
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
It is more an issue with the DR and high ISO that plague the small sensor. Had Olympus made some serious glass (40mm f/1.2) it could have been a different story.

I still think that a larger sensor would have saved the 4/3 system.
I think you nailed it with the DR. although I don't seem to have any issue with regards to High ISO since I practically don't shoot at such sensitivity at a regular basis, although it's quite a help if it does have better results at such sensitivities. but personally I would prefer a consistently High DR as far as ISO 1600, then that would be enough for me.
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