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06-20-2011, 07:32 PM   #901
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
645D can handle larger sensor simply just because it is a legacy mount- - (like K mount is for FF) and MF sensor from Kodak is simply smaller than MF film used for 645, unlike NEX which was designed that way.
I agree. I am making the point because the Pentax 645D sensor is the smallest MF one out there right now. This is reflected in the price difference between it and a Phase One or Hassy where the MP race is hotter than it is for P&S.

To stay on this thread's topic, Pentax left room for a larger sensor, not a smaller one; and they did *not* create a new mount for a new sensor size. MF is a about long-term customer loyalty and glass investments (he says lovingly stroking his Mamiya glass).

06-20-2011, 07:39 PM   #902
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Yes, but Samsung is already trying hard to get Olympus's business, and given the delays Panasonic has had and the problems with low yields I think Olympus is ready to give someone else their business. One of the main failures of the 4/3 & m4/3 system has been the slow development of sensors.
And you may have nailed M43's biggest problem. Sensor supply and price. Is Samsung trying to make M43 sensors, or are they trying to sell NX's?

I suspect that M43 sensors cost the same as APS-C which is one major reason why Panasonic has not kept up. So the only $ saved is very marginal on form factor materials. M43 is a paradox because its licensed system is supposedly "open", but it has a sole sensor supplier, so no shopping around.

If they get into an IQ war M43 may simply not be able to keep up, certainly has no production advantage, and may have a cost disadvantage. Samsung will flog the NX series before it will climb down on price for Olympus. Oly would need Samsung far more than the other way around.
06-20-2011, 08:34 PM   #903
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
And you may have nailed M43's biggest problem. Sensor supply and price. Is Samsung trying to make M43 sensors, or are they trying to sell NX's?

I suspect that M43 sensors cost the same as APS-C which is one major reason why Panasonic has not kept up. So the only $ saved is very marginal on form factor materials. M43 is a paradox because its licensed system is supposedly "open", but it has a sole sensor supplier, so no shopping around.

If they get into an IQ war M43 may simply not be able to keep up, certainly has no production advantage, and may have a cost disadvantage. Samsung will flog the NX series before it will climb down on price for Olympus. Oly would need Samsung far more than the other way around.
Panasonic has had numerous problems. The built a new fab plant to manufacture the GH1 sensor, but it was delayed over a year and Panasonic could not produce enough sensors to meet demand for the GH1 much less supply Olympus. Then there were yield issues with the new sensor that have kept the GH prices high. Since you can get more 4/3 sensors out of a wafer than APS-C. The rule of thumb use to be to double the size of the senor was going to cost 4x as much. I'm not sure if that is still accurate, but 4/3 sensors should be a lot cheaper than APS-C if they have identical yields. Olympus has been forced to stick with the now 5 year old 12MP 4/3 sensor originally developed for the E-30 & G1 series.

I think Samsung needs Olympus. Samsung's new sensor will only appeal to a few people and Samsung will not sell enough NX cameras to use as many sensors as Samsung needs to produce to keep their own cost down. I would guess that if the Samsung sensor is as good as some people think that Olympus would pay a premium to have a better sensor than Panasonic. That would give Olympus an advantage in the M4/3 market.

Olympus is rolling out an $800.00 all metal 12mm f/2 lens for M4/3. It is made at the same plant that was making the 150mm f/2 (which was an amazing lens). It is the equivalent to the SGH glass for 4/3 and has faster AF on the new EP-3 than the E-3 or other 4/3 DSLRs using PDAF. I just can't see Olympus rolling out all of this with the same recycled sensor.

The Fuji X100 is using the same sensor as the K-x and doing pretty well with sales. If Olympus can roll out the EP-3 with comparable performance and all the lens options I think they will have a big seller.
06-20-2011, 09:41 PM   #904
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I thought X100 sensor was a Fuji design ?

06-20-2011, 10:00 PM   #905
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I thought X100 sensor was a Fuji design ?
The guys on the Fuji forums are bragging about how Fuji is able to get better performance from the Sony sensor than Nikon, Pentax, or Sony.

The only sensors Fuji is making in-house are the various CCD/Super CCD and p&s sensors. Fuji has really fallen off. I am not aware of any camera using a Fuji CMOS sensor.
06-20-2011, 10:07 PM   #906
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The guys on the Fuji forums are bragging about how Fuji is able to get better performance from the Sony sensor than Nikon, Pentax, or Sony.

The only sensors Fuji is making in-house are the various CCD/Super CCD and p&s sensors. Fuji has really fallen off. I am not aware of any camera using a Fuji CMOS sensor.
In other terms they did what Nikon did as well: tell the world it has a Nikon sensor instead of a Sony sensor slightly customized to Nikon's liking...
06-20-2011, 11:28 PM   #907
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The guys on the Fuji forums are bragging about how Fuji is able to get better performance from the Sony sensor than Nikon, Pentax, or Sony.

The only sensors Fuji is making in-house are the various CCD/Super CCD and p&s sensors. Fuji has really fallen off. I am not aware of any camera using a Fuji CMOS sensor.
I'm not aware of any disclosure made by Fuji of them using a Sony CMOS sensor.
what I do remember is them saying that they a using a unique hybrid CMOS (combining CMOS and EXR technology, not the typical FUJI CCD/SUper CCD + EXR technology), not necessarily saying the source or origin of the sensor in itself, nor affirming a borrowed sensor. although there were rumors that the X100 had the same sensor with the D90 which uses a Sony sensor. whether there is truth to this rumor or none, it is up to debate. there are certain areas that it appear to be similar, the similarity ends however as you go up at higher sensitivities where the D90 gets left behind. some say that the X100's Highest sensitivity is rather amplified which one would think that it really has a higher ISO value. it could be true considering that the higher ISOs of the X100 has retained a very good retention of IQ and avoid any destructive noise that is prevalent on the D90's high sensitivities. but it could be argued that it could be the EXR sensor technology kicking in which would make noise a non-factor in degrading IQ. the thing is, the lack of confirmation from what sensor the x100 is using could be a genuine article from Fuji in it's sensor development. as to how they did it, this might explain how it differs from the conventional CMOS that we have as of the moment. >>>
06-20-2011, 11:32 PM   #908
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06-21-2011, 01:30 AM   #909
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I think Samsung needs Olympus. Samsung's new sensor will only appeal to a few people and Samsung will not sell enough NX cameras to use as many sensors as Samsung needs to produce to keep their own cost down. I would guess that if the Samsung sensor is as good as some people think that Olympus would pay a premium to have a better sensor than Panasonic.
Well for Samsung it is now the same problem as working with Pentax at the time of the K20D sensor. When sales are not high enough there is no profit to make on return of investment in developing and producing a sensor. That is why probably they basicly still use the same sensor today in some NX camera's. It is design from 2007/8 so that is not keeping up with modern technology.
06-21-2011, 06:18 AM   #910
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
I'm not aware of any disclosure made by Fuji of them using a Sony CMOS sensor.
what I do remember is them saying that they a using a unique hybrid CMOS (combining CMOS and EXR technology, not the typical FUJI CCD/SUper CCD + EXR technology), not necessarily saying the source or origin of the sensor in itself, nor affirming a borrowed sensor. although there were rumors that the X100 had the same sensor with the D90 which uses a Sony sensor. whether there is truth to this rumor or none, it is up to debate. there are certain areas that it appear to be similar, the similarity ends however as you go up at higher sensitivities where the D90 gets left behind. some say that the X100's Highest sensitivity is rather amplified which one would think that it really has a higher ISO value. it could be true considering that the higher ISOs of the X100 has retained a very good retention of IQ and avoid any destructive noise that is prevalent on the D90's high sensitivities. but it could be argued that it could be the EXR sensor technology kicking in which would make noise a non-factor in degrading IQ. the thing is, the lack of confirmation from what sensor the x100 is using could be a genuine article from Fuji in it's sensor development. as to how they did it, this might explain how it differs from the conventional CMOS that we have as of the moment. >>> YouTube - ‪EXR CMOS Sensor Technology movie‬‏
If it was a Fuji sensor I think they would be advertising it as such. It is performing very well, and they would want people to know they designed it. Since they are keeping quiet I would guess they out sourced the sensor. There are no APS-C EXR sensors. Nobody makes a back illuminated APS-C or even 4/3. They still have not been able to deal with the heat issues.

The X100 is probably using the Sony 12MP sensor, but with the Fuji EXR color array and micro lenses.
06-21-2011, 06:42 AM   #911
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well for Samsung it is now the same problem as working with Pentax at the time of the K20D sensor. When sales are not high enough there is no profit to make on return of investment in developing and producing a sensor. That is why probably they basicly still use the same sensor today in some NX camera's. It is design from 2007/8 so that is not keeping up with modern technology.
Samsung can not afford to stop development on new sensors if they want to stay in the camera business. Samsung has invested quite a bit in to sensor development. Samsung knows how fast a camera can become irrelevant if it has a poor sensor.

The Samsung sensor used in the K20 was actually very good at the time of introduction, but was not designed for HD video. The Canon 5DII changed the market in that it made HD Video a requirement on all new bodies. Both Sony and Samsung were caught without ASP-C or FF sensors that could handle HD video. Samsung redesigned the K20 sensor for HD Video, but performance suffered. They did not have time to develop a new sensor from scratch. What we saw from Samsung in the K-7 and the NX series is a transitional sensor. The NX20 is rumored to be released soon with a new 18MP sensor. I think the rumored specifications and performance of the Samsung sensor are pretty accurate because Samsung has been shopping the sensor to other camera companies. It is hard to keep something a secret and try to sell it.
06-21-2011, 06:58 AM   #912
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The X100 is probably using the Sony 12MP sensor, but with the Fuji EXR color array and micro lenses.
That, and the Fuji processing pipeline. The real "magic" of the X100 seems to be its JPEGs (e.g. Fujifilm FinePix X100 Review: 24. Compared to (Raw): Digital Photography Review)
06-21-2011, 12:07 PM - 1 Like   #913
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06-21-2011, 02:32 PM   #914
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QuoteOriginally posted by hopey Quote
Maybe uncle Mike knows something we don't?

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Man is that server swamped or is it just my impression? Guess I know where I'll be at 10:00 tomorrow local...
06-21-2011, 03:56 PM   #915
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QuoteOriginally posted by hopey Quote
Maybe uncle Mike knows something we don't?

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