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06-23-2011, 04:46 PM   #1051
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versus





Wow, this thing is smaller than I thought!

06-23-2011, 05:33 PM   #1052
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote

versus





Wow, this thing is smaller than I thought!
it's as big as my Canon S1400 IS which has a 1/2.33 sensor. typical P&S sensor construct to say the least. so I'm not really surprised how small it could go. it is somewhat of a toycam concept except that it's not entirely. I think it would rely on how good the lenses are.

I'm not sure if an M4/3 could go that small unless it eliminates some of the controls and shrink the LV size.

if I were to say this, I guess it's target market would be more of a cool/ techie factor or younger crowd rather than the hobbyist/enthusiast/serious photographers.

Last edited by Pentaxor; 06-23-2011 at 06:53 PM.
06-23-2011, 06:32 PM   #1053
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Well at least we found out that the 4/3 rumour was true - at least for the sensor aspect.
I think the price point is a little wrong, else I think this would compete with the G12 etc. I think someone has listened to the folks (me included) bemoaning the lack of an advanced Pentax compact with PASM. Well folks, this thing is really well specified - kudos on that front.
It remains to be seen how good the IQ will be.

Looks like fun, but then again, so does a tablet for that money.
06-23-2011, 07:06 PM   #1054
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clarkey Quote
Well at least we found out that the 4/3 rumour was true - at least for the sensor aspect.
I think the price point is a little wrong, else I think this would compete with the G12 etc. I think someone has listened to the folks (me included) bemoaning the lack of an advanced Pentax compact with PASM. Well folks, this thing is really well specified - kudos on that front.
It remains to be seen how good the IQ will be.

Looks like fun, but then again, so does a tablet for that money.
yeah, the price IMO is unrealistic. from my perspective, it should run around $200-$300 (depending on how good it is) and just let the lens offering add the cost which I think shouldn't be that much. in the end, a complete set of Q lenses + the camera should run around $500-$600 in total, which isn't bad. pricing the camera alone at $700-$800 is just absurd. anyway, if the complete package happens to be underwhelming, a price-point would be $450 at best.

I'm basing the prices on the current P&S trend on average.

06-23-2011, 07:26 PM   #1055
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Who cares about the historical pedigree if they keep turning out great cameras and great lenses?
Great? That's a subjective term considering the big knocks against the GH series is over-priced glass and a very high price to begin with.

As with Olympus, their lower end M43 models trend strongly towards P&S in operation..... by design, as M43 advertising even positions the system as a bridge from P&S.
06-23-2011, 07:56 PM - 1 Like   #1056
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
yeah, the price IMO is unrealistic. from my perspective, it should run around $200-$300 (depending on how good it is) and just let the lens offering add the cost which I think shouldn't be that much. in the end, a complete set of Q lenses + the camera should run around $500-$600 in total, which isn't bad. pricing the camera alone at $700-$800 is just absurd. anyway, if the complete package happens to be underwhelming, a price-point would be $450 at best.

I'm basing the prices on the current P&S trend on average.
I think it's priced a bit high too also. I would wait and see what the actual retail is. For example the new Panasonic 25mm is several hundred dollars less than what it was priced when it was announced. I pre-ordered it for $599. Initially it was supposed to go for around a $1000.

I am very intrigued by this camera but I would have to be able to afford the three toy lenses + camera/standard prime (which I think is the kit lens). That remains to be seen. But I really do like the toy lens idea.

I'm agreement with most folks that this is not product designed for the US market.

I have my doubts they will sell a lot of these but I really am clueless about camera markets. I just get what I like and don't worry about whether it's popular or not. If I did that I would using Nikon or Cannon, not Pentax, Olympus, Fuji, and Sigma.
06-23-2011, 09:43 PM   #1057
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Great? That's a subjective term considering the big knocks against the GH series is over-priced glass and a very high price to begin with.
Over-priced is also subjective. My benchmark lens at the point of buying was Olympus m.Zuiko 9-18mm ~450 GBP vs. Pentax 12-24mm which is 630 GBP now but was literally 900 GBP when I bought my GF1.
06-24-2011, 05:16 AM   #1058
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QuoteOriginally posted by sifun Quote
I really don't understand which market they are aiming for with this $800 price point.

Are they aiming for lomo holga street shooting hipsters? not at this price point.

Where does all the cost come into what they've put into this camera? A 1/2.33 sensor shouldn't add that much to this cost.
Most Holga hipsters have multiple cameras bought at ridiculous prices for what they are, add the cost of Film/processing and scanning (which with 120 is not cheap at all) and it doesn't take long to sell this to someone. Personally (as I said earlier) I think this is a perfect it for the Lomo stores and could easily be marketed there. Not sure if Pentax is that creative in distribution marketing though.

06-24-2011, 05:48 AM   #1059
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I guess we'll have to disagree on this. I don't think IQ is the determining factor, particularly those moving up from a P&S. Like many of us here I bet, I get a lot of questions about people stepping up from a Point & Shoot. The kinds of things that I've heard include:

"I can't take photos of my kids playing soccer with my point & shoot."
"I was on this cruise and this guy next to me got some great shots of the whales. Mine look like tiny dots."
"I'm intimidated by dSLRs. I don't have time to learn how to use them."
"I'm looking for higher quality."
Well then the Q is perfect.

Pentax has a designed a tiny mirrorless for the P&S mindset for a world where sensor size is not an issue but the quality sought through lens interchangeability is desired. That's classic M43 logic. So, is sensor size a consideration or not?

That's the exact same logic BTW that sunk 43 compared to APS-C.

So what are people looking for in a camera? What I know is that DSLR's still sell at relative volumes approaching or exceeding SLR sales from the early 1980's halcyon days of photography. Canon has TV and internet ads constantly running with 3 entry to mid models all compared together: the T1i, T2i, and T3i and they top sales charts. I can get a D3000 (not a great camera, but leaps and bounds superior to any P&S) for $269 with 18-55 kit lens. That's astounding photographic value. The consumer has never had such a plethora of affordable, technically excellent cameras and lenses.

DSLR's are approaching commodity prices and, frankly, a market does not do that if there is not substantial demand, so I take issue with the "intimidation" factor for DSLR's cited above. The market says the opposite. These DSLR's have auto functions for a reason and the market is responding by selling them in bucketloads in 1 and 2 kits lens systems, with inexpensive 1.8 primes displayed right alongside. I was in a big box store where they had both T2i's and D3100's stacked in pyramids for Father's Day. You do not chew up that much retail space and staff outlay without serious sales expectations. I have never seen any hint of such a display for Olympus or Panansonic.

Meanwhile, try and source a GH2 (as of June 24, 2011: Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 Digital Camera W/14-42mm DMC-GH2KK B&H)

In the long run, when mirrorless systems also approach commodity pricing, the APS-C offerings will trounce M43 because they will have a bigger engine, superior production economies-of-scale, and a far larger installed base offered by Canon, Nikon, Samsung, Sony, Pentax, with sidebar markets via Fuji, and Leica, and maybe even Ricoh and Sigma. If I was going to make a long-term mirrorless system lens investment, it would be APS-C, not M43.

As for Q, it probably has a very good sensor because Sony's been on a tear, but the initial price point seems designed to intimidate sales and flatter the competition. Technically, the critical aspect for any advanced system is it ability to handle at least 2 of the the trifecta of low-light, higher ISO, and action focus. I suspect for all the advances in small sensor design the Q's sensor will simply not have enough area to suck up enough light to make the grade on 2 of those three necessities. As I have said earlier, we'll have to see what the image circle on the lenses says about future, larger sensors. The Q we've seen is, after all, only a V.1 design.
06-24-2011, 06:02 AM   #1060
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Most Holga hipsters have multiple cameras bought at ridiculous prices for what they are, add the cost of Film/processing and scanning (which with 120 is not cheap at all) and it doesn't take long to sell this to someone. Personally (as I said earlier) I think this is a perfect it for the Lomo stores and could easily be marketed there. Not sure if Pentax is that creative in distribution marketing though.
Most Holgas are probably sold for less than $30 delivered off eBay. Not everyone buys at Lomography's silly prices:

New Lomo Holga 120N 120 N Snap Shot Plastic Camera | eBay

It's the Diana's and other offerings that are 2x the price usually.

Film purchase, processing, prints, and scanning should come to about $30/roll for 120, so, yes, there is a premium for having an an analog workflow. The point is to have a few quirky photos rather than endless screens of technically perfect digital items. It's the "slow food" movement of photography.

Not every Holga user is a hipster. Jonathan Canlas uses one for wedding photos on the quirky side, using slide film x-processed and flash.

Lomography won't sell a digital camera, but Photojojo might.

The whole point of toy lenses is sort of anti-Photoshop.
06-24-2011, 06:07 AM   #1061
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On paper (from Physics basics), low-light and depth-of-field will be limited by the tiny sensor. The price is also a big turn-off. But the form factor may be a big hit and the "coolness" factor too strong. So, while my instincts tell me it'll flop, I'll reserve judgement until I read a couple of reviews from some reputable sites.
06-24-2011, 06:36 AM   #1062
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Most Holgas are probably sold for less than $30 delivered off eBay. Not everyone buys at Lomography's silly prices:

Or it's real something like this
ジグソー、カメラ関連アイテムで初めてレビューアーを募集 - デジカメWatch
エー・パワー、ホルガレンズにミラーレスカメラ用など追加 - デジカメWatch
06-24-2011, 08:17 AM   #1063
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Most Holgas are probably sold for less than $30 delivered off eBay. Not everyone buys at Lomography's silly prices:

New Lomo Holga 120N 120 N Snap Shot Plastic Camera | eBay

It's the Diana's and other offerings that are 2x the price usually.

Film purchase, processing, prints, and scanning should come to about $30/roll for 120, so, yes, there is a premium for having an an analog workflow. The point is to have a few quirky photos rather than endless screens of technically perfect digital items. It's the "slow food" movement of photography.

Not every Holga user is a hipster. Jonathan Canlas uses one for wedding photos on the quirky side, using slide film x-processed and flash.

Lomography won't sell a digital camera, but Photojojo might.

The whole point of toy lenses is sort of anti-Photoshop.
you'd be surprised by how many cameras the lomo stores sell at B&M, i've been a a couple of them now and they are busier than some of the true camera stores
lot's of people pay the stupid prices in store (personally i have 4 lomo's and never bought one they were all gifts from friends who saw them at lomo stores and thought of me because of the old film cameras I have. you underestimate the gullibility of the general public sir
06-24-2011, 08:26 AM   #1064
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
you'd be surprised by how many cameras the lomo stores sell at B&M, i've been a a couple of them now and they are busier than some of the true camera stores
lot's of people pay the stupid prices in store (personally i have 4 lomo's and never bought one they were all gifts from friends who saw them at lomo stores and thought of me because of the old film cameras I have. you underestimate the gullibility of the general public sir
I'd buy the sprocket rocket. That one looks really interesting and does panoramas as well. Some of the multi-lens ones are interesting, but I cannot see doing 24 or even 36 exp. within a reasonable timeframe.

I have a Holga, Sadly, broken. I will trade for a Q. Anyone? Anyone?
06-24-2011, 08:27 AM   #1065
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Won't begin to compete with Sony or Leica. Toy lenses on $800 cameras? Won't compete with Holga, for which part of the reason is carrying a cheap piece of plastic...something to talk about.
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