Pentax EVIL NC-1 has smaller sensor than APS-C - your opinion?

nosnoop · 02-20-2011, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by aragondina

Bringing out a M4/3rds camera would just add insult to injury....... Canon survived the changing of their mount in the 80's, Olympus wouldn't. They are just too small a player.

You obviously did not know the dismal sales number of Olympus and Panasonic 4/3rds cameras before they brought on the m4/3rd.
On the contrary, m4/3rd has single handedly helped Olympus recovering to pretty good camera sales in the last two years. Obviously, no one has the crystal ball as to know how it will play out in the future; but their outlook is infinitely better than before the m4/3rd was released.

juu · 02-20-2011, 01:20 AM

I think the point of an Olympus pro m43 camera is that 4/3 lenses continue to work.

And the whole "EVFs can never replace OVFs" reminds me of the "digital can never replace film" debate. How did that turn out?

Also, aragordina, you appear to imply conclusions about m43 because of the state 4/3 is in. Just because they share sensor size and some lens compatibility (in one direction) doesn't mean that 4/3 being a failure will impact m43.

thibs · 02-20-2011, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by nosnoop

Obviously, no one has the crystal ball as to know how it will play out in the future; but their outlook is infinitely better than before the m4/3rd was released.

That was not very hard, also

Seriously, they are a lot better, no doubt. But Most Pros using SLR (I know some Pros are happy with mirrorless) would see Olympus as a company which has a legacy (4/3 lenses) and current products (m4/3). As for now, there's not a single 'Pro' (note the quotes) in m4/3 bodies. And I'm the first to be clueless about how it should be done.

But Olys camera are seen as nice, cool, small but they're seen like toys next to even a K10D. If Oly can change that, all will be well. Otherwise, frankly I dunno.

thibs · 02-20-2011, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by juu

And the whole "EVFs can never replace OVFs" reminds me of the "digital can never replace film" debate. How did that turn out?

Well, it turns out a lot of people go back to Silver, including young ones who never even used film before.
IMO this is a matter of both use and taste.

Waiting for a print out of the printer is a waste of time.
Getting into my lab for 2 hours if needs to be for a single print is a joy.

As I said, matter of taste

juu · 02-20-2011, 03:47 AM

Originally posted by thibs

Well, it turns out a lot of people go back to Silver, including young ones who never even used film before.
IMO this is a matter of both use and taste.

I completely agree, with one caveat. The caveat being that "a lot" here means "a huge number of" as opposed to "a large proportion of".

And I will fully concede that about the proportion of people which has stayed with film will stay with OVFs. I don't expect to find agreement on that here, it's just a prediction of mine which I obviously cannot prove.

But the forces at work, I think are, that good pentaprisms are expensive and heavy, while the best EVFs are better than the average pentamirrors already, and will only be betting better.

**Pål Jensen** · 02-20-2011, 04:56 AM

Originally posted by juu

And the whole "EVFs can never replace OVFs" reminds me of the "digital can never replace film" debate. How did that turn out?
.

Nothing in common with film vs. digital. It has more in common with the "paperless office". How did that turn out?

thibs · 02-20-2011, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Nothing in common with film vs. digital. It has more in common with the "paperless office". How did that turn out?

Interesting take on this

Art Vandelay II · 02-20-2011, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by thibs

But Olys camera are seen as nice, cool, small but they're seen like toys next to even a K10D. If Oly can change that, all will be well. Otherwise, frankly I dunno.

I agree with this to some degree, but I think that is easy enough to fix. All they have to do is release a few m4/3's bodies with pro build quality and features, then the perception of m4/3's will change. Assuming Olympus can find a sensor capable of decent ISO3200 then I imagine a good number of photo journalist would be interested in small camera with pro build quality. Also, I imagine nature photographers would like the idea of having a very capable camera with a 2X crop factor just to save cost and weight on lenses.

I could see a pro m4/3's camera going two different ways. The first would be a high end Fuji X100-like camera with interchangeable lenses. The other could be something that looks like an Olympus E-450, but built like a tank and have an optional battery grip. The "artist" in me wants the former, but the practical photographer in me wants the latter.

Originally posted by juu

the best EVFs are better than the average pentamirrors already, and will only be betting better.

This is very very true. Oh how I hate the pentamirror. If glass prisms eventually take a seat behind EVF's in popularity it will be because people's perception of them will be based on pentamirrors without ever looking through a proper view finder such as the Sony A-900. Take the Olympus E-450 I mentioned above for example; I love the size and the form of that camera, but the pentamirror in it is so bad it makes the camera borderline unusable IMO.

juu · 02-20-2011, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Nothing in common with film vs. digital.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. Film is old, digital is new. OVFs are old, EVFs are new. OVFs are analog, EVFs are digital. Film is analog, digital is... em... digital. That's two things in common. Shall I go on?

Quote:

It has more in common with the "paperless office". How did that turn out?

If we follow the definition "A paperless office is a work environment in which the use of paper is eliminated or greatly reduced." I'd argue many organizations are already there. I send/receive about 100 e-mails per day while I print at most 5 documents per week (many weeks none). I don't send/receive any paper memos or anything ever.

So clearly use of paper has been greatly reduced.

It could depend from industry to industry and from country to country, but the trend is obviously there and hasn't stopped. Even the UK paper merchants report that paper use is going down 1% or more annually for the last 10 years.

So I think your example was not very good. You also did not make it clear why you think it applies better than film vs. digital or LCDs vs. CRTs. But even if you'd find a better one, my point still stands.

Entropy · 02-21-2011, 10:32 AM

Micro 4/3 - Maybe.
Slightly smaller than 4/3 format - Maybe.

1/2.33" sensor? Absolutely pointless. IQ will be utterly abysmal. There are point-and-shoots (Canon S95) with sensors larger than this (1/1.7").

The point of MILCs is to provide an image quality/convenience point somewhere between P&S cameras and DSLRs. With a 1/2.33" sensor, it will have all of the disadvantages of P&S cameras in terms of IQ. It won't be able to leverage existing digital camera lenses from any system (most of the other EVILs/MILCs can if you are willing to accept a compactness penalty). It won't even be able to remotely leverage any existing interchangeable lens designs except at the most extreme telephoto ranges. (Even a 30mm lens will be a telephoto lens on a sensor like that.)

jogiba · 02-21-2011, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Nothing in common with film vs. digital. It has more in common with the "paperless office". How did that turn out?

With the new hybrid still/video cameras the EVF is the only way to go.

glanglois · 02-21-2011, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Nothing in common with film vs. digital. It has more in common with the "paperless office". How did that turn out?

Amy Wohl, I think, noted 25 years ago that the paperless office was roughly as practical as a paperless bathroom.

sifun · 02-21-2011, 04:20 PM

What is the point with such a small sensor?
Compacts now a days are around the same though some of them have even bigger sensors- Panasonic LX5 with leica f2.0 lens.
I will probably pick up an X100

Supernaut · 02-22-2011, 02:34 AM

I hope the rumor regarding a Nikon 2.5x crop is true and that Pentax is using the same sensor format.

I guess Nikon will chose the sensor size so it won't compete with their traditional dslrs while Pentax chose it to be able to make a small, rugged MILC that is pocketable.

Guess who is making the finest camera out of that.

And guess who sells the most..

uccemebug · 02-22-2011, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by Supernaut

Guess who is making the finest camera out of that. And guess who sells the most..

Don't think you'll find any arguments. But I'd rather see them make a fixed lens camera line in that space (a quality p&s*) and separately contribute lenses and bodies to µ43. I hope the rumoured two mirrorless systems is false; I would take that to be a sign of confusion about the product line.

*I've been drooling over the X100 but it's occurred to me recently that it's actually more camera than I really need for a street shooter. Something cheaper & smaller with a smaller sensor and maybe a viewfinder would do me.

02-20-2011, 08:56 AM	#323
Art Vandelay II Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Photos: Gallery Posts: 886	Originally posted by thibs But Olys camera are seen as nice, cool, small but they're seen like toys next to even a K10D. If Oly can change that, all will be well. Otherwise, frankly I dunno. I agree with this to some degree, but I think that is easy enough to fix. All they have to do is release a few m4/3's bodies with pro build quality and features, then the perception of m4/3's will change. Assuming Olympus can find a sensor capable of decent ISO3200 then I imagine a good number of photo journalist would be interested in small camera with pro build quality. Also, I imagine nature photographers would like the idea of having a very capable camera with a 2X crop factor just to save cost and weight on lenses. I could see a pro m4/3's camera going two different ways. The first would be a high end Fuji X100-like camera with interchangeable lenses. The other could be something that looks like an Olympus E-450, but built like a tank and have an optional battery grip. The "artist" in me wants the former, but the practical photographer in me wants the latter. Originally posted by juu the best EVFs are better than the average pentamirrors already, and will only be betting better. This is very very true. Oh how I hate the pentamirror. If glass prisms eventually take a seat behind EVF's in popularity it will be because people's perception of them will be based on pentamirrors without ever looking through a proper view finder such as the Sony A-900. Take the Olympus E-450 I mentioned above for example; I love the size and the form of that camera, but the pentamirror in it is so bad it makes the camera borderline unusable IMO. Last edited by Art Vandelay II; 02-20-2011 at 09:04 AM.

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02-20-2011, 01:19 AM	#316
nosnoop Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,299	Originally posted by aragondina Bringing out a M4/3rds camera would just add insult to injury....... Canon survived the changing of their mount in the 80's, Olympus wouldn't. They are just too small a player. You obviously did not know the dismal sales number of Olympus and Panasonic 4/3rds cameras before they brought on the m4/3rd. On the contrary, m4/3rd has single handedly helped Olympus recovering to pretty good camera sales in the last two years. Obviously, no one has the crystal ball as to know how it will play out in the future; but their outlook is infinitely better than before the m4/3rd was released.

02-20-2011, 01:20 AM	#317
juu Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 680	I think the point of an Olympus pro m43 camera is that 4/3 lenses continue to work. And the whole "EVFs can never replace OVFs" reminds me of the "digital can never replace film" debate. How did that turn out? Also, aragordina, you appear to imply conclusions about m43 because of the state 4/3 is in. Just because they share sensor size and some lens compatibility (in one direction) doesn't mean that 4/3 being a failure will impact m43.

02-20-2011, 01:48 AM	#318
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by nosnoop Obviously, no one has the crystal ball as to know how it will play out in the future; but their outlook is infinitely better than before the m4/3rd was released. That was not very hard, also Seriously, they are a lot better, no doubt. But Most Pros using SLR (I know some Pros are happy with mirrorless) would see Olympus as a company which has a legacy (4/3 lenses) and current products (m4/3). As for now, there's not a single 'Pro' (note the quotes) in m4/3 bodies. And I'm the first to be clueless about how it should be done. But Olys camera are seen as nice, cool, small but they're seen like toys next to even a K10D. If Oly can change that, all will be well. Otherwise, frankly I dunno.

02-20-2011, 01:51 AM	#319
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by juu And the whole "EVFs can never replace OVFs" reminds me of the "digital can never replace film" debate. How did that turn out? Well, it turns out a lot of people go back to Silver, including young ones who never even used film before. IMO this is a matter of both use and taste. Waiting for a print out of the printer is a waste of time. Getting into my lab for 2 hours if needs to be for a single print is a joy. As I said, matter of taste

02-20-2011, 03:47 AM	#320
juu Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 680	Originally posted by thibs Well, it turns out a lot of people go back to Silver, including young ones who never even used film before. IMO this is a matter of both use and taste. I completely agree, with one caveat. The caveat being that "a lot" here means "a huge number of" as opposed to "a large proportion of". And I will fully concede that about the proportion of people which has stayed with film will stay with OVFs. I don't expect to find agreement on that here, it's just a prediction of mine which I obviously cannot prove. But the forces at work, I think are, that good pentaprisms are expensive and heavy, while the best EVFs are better than the average pentamirrors already, and will only be betting better.

02-20-2011, 04:56 AM	#321
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by juu And the whole "EVFs can never replace OVFs" reminds me of the "digital can never replace film" debate. How did that turn out? . Nothing in common with film vs. digital. It has more in common with the "paperless office". How did that turn out?

02-20-2011, 08:15 AM	#322
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Nothing in common with film vs. digital. It has more in common with the "paperless office". How did that turn out? Interesting take on this

02-20-2011, 09:24 AM	#324
juu Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 680	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Nothing in common with film vs. digital. Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. Film is old, digital is new. OVFs are old, EVFs are new. OVFs are analog, EVFs are digital. Film is analog, digital is... em... digital. That's two things in common. Shall I go on? Quote: It has more in common with the "paperless office". How did that turn out? If we follow the definition "A paperless office is a work environment in which the use of paper is eliminated or greatly reduced." I'd argue many organizations are already there. I send/receive about 100 e-mails per day while I print at most 5 documents per week (many weeks none). I don't send/receive any paper memos or anything ever. So clearly use of paper has been greatly reduced. It could depend from industry to industry and from country to country, but the trend is obviously there and hasn't stopped. Even the UK paper merchants report that paper use is going down 1% or more annually for the last 10 years. So I think your example was not very good. You also did not make it clear why you think it applies better than film vs. digital or LCDs vs. CRTs. But even if you'd find a better one, my point still stands.

02-21-2011, 10:32 AM	#325
Entropy Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 976	Micro 4/3 - Maybe. Slightly smaller than 4/3 format - Maybe. 1/2.33" sensor? Absolutely pointless. IQ will be utterly abysmal. There are point-and-shoots (Canon S95) with sensors larger than this (1/1.7"). The point of MILCs is to provide an image quality/convenience point somewhere between P&S cameras and DSLRs. With a 1/2.33" sensor, it will have all of the disadvantages of P&S cameras in terms of IQ. It won't be able to leverage existing digital camera lenses from any system (most of the other EVILs/MILCs can if you are willing to accept a compactness penalty). It won't even be able to remotely leverage any existing interchangeable lens designs except at the most extreme telephoto ranges. (Even a 30mm lens will be a telephoto lens on a sensor like that.)

02-21-2011, 01:52 PM	#326
jogiba Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Millstone,NJ Posts: 6,491	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Nothing in common with film vs. digital. It has more in common with the "paperless office". How did that turn out? With the new hybrid still/video cameras the EVF is the only way to go.

02-21-2011, 04:18 PM	#327
glanglois Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Madison, Wis., USA Posts: 1,506	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Nothing in common with film vs. digital. It has more in common with the "paperless office". How did that turn out? Amy Wohl, I think, noted 25 years ago that the paperless office was roughly as practical as a paperless bathroom.

02-21-2011, 04:20 PM	#328
sifun Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Albums Posts: 58	What is the point with such a small sensor? Compacts now a days are around the same though some of them have even bigger sensors- Panasonic LX5 with leica f2.0 lens. I will probably pick up an X100

02-22-2011, 02:34 AM	#329
Supernaut Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: West Coast , Sweden Posts: 467	I hope the rumor regarding a Nikon 2.5x crop is true and that Pentax is using the same sensor format. I guess Nikon will chose the sensor size so it won't compete with their traditional dslrs while Pentax chose it to be able to make a small, rugged MILC that is pocketable. Guess who is making the finest camera out of that. And guess who sells the most..

02-22-2011, 07:12 AM	#330
uccemebug Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 962	Originally posted by Supernaut Guess who is making the finest camera out of that. And guess who sells the most.. Don't think you'll find any arguments. But I'd rather see them make a fixed lens camera line in that space (a quality p&s) and separately contribute lenses and bodies to µ43. I hope the rumoured two mirrorless systems is false; I would take that to be a sign of confusion about the product line. I've been drooling over the X100 but it's occurred to me recently that it's actually more camera than I really need for a street shooter. Something cheaper & smaller with a smaller sensor and maybe a viewfinder would do me.