Pentax EVIL NC-1 has smaller sensor than APS-C - your opinion?

RonHendriks1966 · 02-22-2011, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by uccemebug

But I'd rather see them make a fixed lens camera line in that space (a quality p&s*) and separately contribute lenses and bodies to µ43.

Maybe a fixed lens Full Frame p&s with 43mm/f1.9 lens. :ugh:

ChrisJ · 02-22-2011, 08:23 AM

We've all seen what Pentax can do with an APS sized sensor giving the full frame cameras more than a run for their money with the K5, if they can come close with a half frame sensor I'm definatly interested.

Pentax doesn't have any legacy lenses in the m4/3 format, I have used Pentax 110 lenses on my G1 with stunning results, I figured out how to get around the no internal aperture adjustment by using the old slide in aperture approach.

Flickr: screwdriver1's Photostream

Chris

RonHendriks1966 · 02-22-2011, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by ChrisJ

Pentax doesn't have any legacy lenses in the m4/3 format, I have used Pentax 110 lenses on my G1 with stunning results, I figured out how to get around the no internal aperture adjustment by using the old slide in aperture approach.

Flickr: screwdriver1's Photostream

Chris

That looks very good.

uccemebug · 02-22-2011, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by ChrisJ

Pentax doesn't have any legacy lenses in the m4/3 format

But they do have a legacy of participating in open mounts. µ43 might not be 'open', per se, but it's certainly shaping up to be an important standard. I'm not sure that there will be a lot of room for also-ran mirrorless formats.

Originally posted by ChrisJ

Flickr: screwdriver1's Photostream

Nice work, in that set. You've got a real knack with making equipment, too.

**Aristophanes** · 02-22-2011, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Supernaut

I hope the rumor regarding a Nikon 2.5x crop is true and that Pentax is using the same sensor format.

I guess Nikon will chose the sensor size so it won't compete with their traditional dslrs while Pentax chose it to be able to make a small, rugged MILC that is pocketable.

Guess who is making the finest camera out of that.

And guess who sells the most..

If they're using a small variant of the Sony sensors delivering so much punch for the D7000 and K-5 in a truly small form factor, they do a few things at the same time for Nikon/Pentax:

1) It gets them into the MILC market without cannibalizing their successful APS-C DSLR's. They keep their DSLR's for the time being (becasue they sell very well and are profitable given the sunk costs and consumer lens investments) and adapt the larger APS-C (and maybe even 645 MF) to MILC at some point in the future.

2) It gives these 2 companies in particular something to take on the Canon G and S series, the Panasonic LX series, and the new Oly. Why buy an LX-5 when you can have a MILC for a reasonable upsell? Aftermarket lens sales? Got those! External flash? Yup? New ecosystem? You bet. Pentax and Nikon have simply not been able to compete in this price range/market segment.

3) If the argument of M4/3 is "good enough" with the form factor size advantage, then Pentax/Nikon continue the thread, through even smaller with a "close to good enough" sensor compared to m43.

The goal is to sell an uber-portable MILC and continue sales of the superior sensor APS-C (or, for Nikon, FF, and Pentax maybe a stretch for some to MF).

Selling 2 systems is better than one and the sales history of cameras is not that of the Holy Grail 1-size-fits-all compromise, but the market has been littered with multiple styles and designs and film sizes with consumers owning more than one to make it the market norm, not the exception.

The Pentax Auto 110 was not a great seller because the film held it back. It was always marketed as a miniature SLR, and maybe that's what we'll see. It was not really designed (not with the limitations of the all-Kodak film of the day) to replace 35mm SLR's. I'll laff me head off if there is a 110 lens adapter option from Pentax for any new MILC in the rumour pipe.

dnas · 02-22-2011, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by uccemebug

But they do have a legacy of participating in open mounts. µ43 might not be 'open', per se, but it's certainly shaping up to be an important standard. I'm not sure that there will be a lot of room for also-ran mirrorless formats.

Yes, I agree, µ43 is becoming an important standard, and quite a few lens makers are jumping on board.
It looks to me like it's going to stay around for quite some time.

Kunzite · 02-23-2011, 03:50 AM

On the contrary; m4/3 is becoming even less of a "standard" - not that it ever was one. There are more than one mirrorless formats, and IMO it makes no sense whatsoever to arbitrarily call one of them a "standard".

thibs · 02-23-2011, 04:09 AM

It is no standard in the sense of an ISO approved standard but it may indeed become a de facto standard.
Still to early to tell though IMO

Kunzite · 02-23-2011, 04:19 AM

Do you see Sony and Samsung switching to m4/3?
I didn't think so.

thibs · 02-23-2011, 06:06 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Do you see Sony and Samsung switching to m4/3?
I didn't think so.

Standards co-exist (for the better or the worse).
Standard doesn't mean everything else doesn't exist.

The hot shoe we use is a stadard, Minolta/Sony use a different one and they still are around. It doesn't make our usual hot shoe a non standard hot shoe, does it?

juu · 02-23-2011, 06:54 AM

"The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from" - A. Tannenbaum

uccemebug · 02-23-2011, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Do you see Sony and Samsung switching to m4/3?
I didn't think so.

Can you name a standard that Sony ever "switched to"?

But seriously, this sort of market maturation is well under way. What use a 'me-too' product unless it offers real distinction?

(Phew, 600 posts?)

eddie1960 · 02-23-2011, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by uccemebug

can you name a standard that sony ever "switched to"?

(phew, 600 posts?)

vhs

**Aristophanes** · 02-23-2011, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by thibs

It is no standard in the sense of an ISO approved standard but it may indeed become a de facto standard.
Still to early to tell though IMO

There are systems and standards.

Film is a standard. ISO is a standard.

35mm is a system. 645 another. 67 another. K-mount a subsystem.

CMOS is a standard. CCD is a standard. They have defined engineering and manufacturing principles (and patents).

m43 is a closed system. Oly's firmware makes them a subsystem of m43. K-mount is still a subsystem of the APS-C system.

The difference is the boundary.

That is how I have understood it.

Kunzite · 02-23-2011, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by thibs

Standards co-exist (for the better or the worse).
Standard doesn't mean everything else doesn't exist.

The hot shoe we use is a stadard, Minolta/Sony use a different one and they still are around. It doesn't make our usual hot shoe a non standard hot shoe, does it?

Are you talking about ISO 518:2006? I'm quite sure that's a standard, but I'm not so sure the Minolta proprietary hot shoe is on a same level

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02-22-2011, 07:38 AM	#331
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by uccemebug But I'd rather see them make a fixed lens camera line in that space (a quality p&s*) and separately contribute lenses and bodies to µ43. Maybe a fixed lens Full Frame p&s with 43mm/f1.9 lens. :ugh:

02-22-2011, 08:23 AM	#332
ChrisJ Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Eckington, Derbyshire UK Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 316	We've all seen what Pentax can do with an APS sized sensor giving the full frame cameras more than a run for their money with the K5, if they can come close with a half frame sensor I'm definatly interested. Pentax doesn't have any legacy lenses in the m4/3 format, I have used Pentax 110 lenses on my G1 with stunning results, I figured out how to get around the no internal aperture adjustment by using the old slide in aperture approach. Flickr: screwdriver1's Photostream Chris

02-22-2011, 10:00 AM	#333
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by ChrisJ Pentax doesn't have any legacy lenses in the m4/3 format, I have used Pentax 110 lenses on my G1 with stunning results, I figured out how to get around the no internal aperture adjustment by using the old slide in aperture approach. Flickr: screwdriver1's Photostream Chris That looks very good.

02-22-2011, 11:26 AM	#334
uccemebug Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 962	Originally posted by ChrisJ Pentax doesn't have any legacy lenses in the m4/3 format But they do have a legacy of participating in open mounts. µ43 might not be 'open', per se, but it's certainly shaping up to be an important standard. I'm not sure that there will be a lot of room for also-ran mirrorless formats. Originally posted by ChrisJ Flickr: screwdriver1's Photostream Nice work, in that set. You've got a real knack with making equipment, too.

02-22-2011, 04:47 PM	#335
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by Supernaut I hope the rumor regarding a Nikon 2.5x crop is true and that Pentax is using the same sensor format. I guess Nikon will chose the sensor size so it won't compete with their traditional dslrs while Pentax chose it to be able to make a small, rugged MILC that is pocketable. Guess who is making the finest camera out of that. And guess who sells the most.. If they're using a small variant of the Sony sensors delivering so much punch for the D7000 and K-5 in a truly small form factor, they do a few things at the same time for Nikon/Pentax: 1) It gets them into the MILC market without cannibalizing their successful APS-C DSLR's. They keep their DSLR's for the time being (becasue they sell very well and are profitable given the sunk costs and consumer lens investments) and adapt the larger APS-C (and maybe even 645 MF) to MILC at some point in the future. 2) It gives these 2 companies in particular something to take on the Canon G and S series, the Panasonic LX series, and the new Oly. Why buy an LX-5 when you can have a MILC for a reasonable upsell? Aftermarket lens sales? Got those! External flash? Yup? New ecosystem? You bet. Pentax and Nikon have simply not been able to compete in this price range/market segment. 3) If the argument of M4/3 is "good enough" with the form factor size advantage, then Pentax/Nikon continue the thread, through even smaller with a "close to good enough" sensor compared to m43. The goal is to sell an uber-portable MILC and continue sales of the superior sensor APS-C (or, for Nikon, FF, and Pentax maybe a stretch for some to MF). Selling 2 systems is better than one and the sales history of cameras is not that of the Holy Grail 1-size-fits-all compromise, but the market has been littered with multiple styles and designs and film sizes with consumers owning more than one to make it the market norm, not the exception. The Pentax Auto 110 was not a great seller because the film held it back. It was always marketed as a miniature SLR, and maybe that's what we'll see. It was not really designed (not with the limitations of the all-Kodak film of the day) to replace 35mm SLR's. I'll laff me head off if there is a 110 lens adapter option from Pentax for any new MILC in the rumour pipe.

02-22-2011, 06:14 PM	#336
dnas Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Japan (Australian expat) Posts: 179	Originally posted by uccemebug But they do have a legacy of participating in open mounts. µ43 might not be 'open', per se, but it's certainly shaping up to be an important standard. I'm not sure that there will be a lot of room for also-ran mirrorless formats. Yes, I agree, µ43 is becoming an important standard, and quite a few lens makers are jumping on board. It looks to me like it's going to stay around for quite some time.

02-23-2011, 03:50 AM	#337
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	On the contrary; m4/3 is becoming even less of a "standard" - not that it ever was one. There are more than one mirrorless formats, and IMO it makes no sense whatsoever to arbitrarily call one of them a "standard".

02-23-2011, 04:09 AM	#338
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	It is no standard in the sense of an ISO approved standard but it may indeed become a de facto standard. Still to early to tell though IMO

02-23-2011, 04:19 AM	#339
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Do you see Sony and Samsung switching to m4/3? I didn't think so.

02-23-2011, 06:06 AM	#340
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by Kunzite Do you see Sony and Samsung switching to m4/3? I didn't think so. Standards co-exist (for the better or the worse). Standard doesn't mean everything else doesn't exist. The hot shoe we use is a stadard, Minolta/Sony use a different one and they still are around. It doesn't make our usual hot shoe a non standard hot shoe, does it?

02-23-2011, 06:54 AM	#341
juu Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 680	"The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from" - A. Tannenbaum

02-23-2011, 08:04 AM	#342
uccemebug Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 962	Originally posted by Kunzite Do you see Sony and Samsung switching to m4/3? I didn't think so. Can you name a standard that Sony ever "switched to"? But seriously, this sort of market maturation is well under way. What use a 'me-too' product unless it offers real distinction? (Phew, 600 posts?)

02-23-2011, 08:11 AM	#343
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,667	Originally posted by uccemebug can you name a standard that sony ever "switched to"? (phew, 600 posts?) vhs

02-23-2011, 08:19 AM	#344
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by thibs It is no standard in the sense of an ISO approved standard but it may indeed become a de facto standard. Still to early to tell though IMO There are systems and standards. Film is a standard. ISO is a standard. 35mm is a system. 645 another. 67 another. K-mount a subsystem. CMOS is a standard. CCD is a standard. They have defined engineering and manufacturing principles (and patents). m43 is a closed system. Oly's firmware makes them a subsystem of m43. K-mount is still a subsystem of the APS-C system. The difference is the boundary. That is how I have understood it.

02-23-2011, 08:20 AM	#345
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by thibs Standards co-exist (for the better or the worse). Standard doesn't mean everything else doesn't exist. The hot shoe we use is a stadard, Minolta/Sony use a different one and they still are around. It doesn't make our usual hot shoe a non standard hot shoe, does it? Are you talking about ISO 518:2006? I'm quite sure that's a standard, but I'm not so sure the Minolta proprietary hot shoe is on a same level