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10-16-2007, 12:15 AM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by 35mmfilm_user Quote
Think about it - Hoya can now give Pentax their lens blanks at cost... because they own Pentax...
Yes, by thinking about it, I was further lost as to why Pentax won't come up with affordable SDM lenses. Nikon buys glass from Hoya, puts it in an 18-135mm lens, includes silent in-lens motor, and sells it all day long at about $250.

On Deep E Reevyoo, just a simple mention of Pentax's patent application for a 16-135mm f3.5-5.6 lens caused many comments of how good that idea is. As it would be competition for that Nikon lens - but with a useful, slightly wider short end, an SDM motor should be a given.

If it is able to be wider than the Nikon competition because lower glass cost, and Pentax decides to make this lens, do you think they will price it at a similar price level (or less), and include the SDM motor? Is this included in Pentax's reasoning under Hoya?

Will Pentax look towards providing the same feature set in comparable lenses to Nikon/Canon (SDM, etc.), yet be lower priced? (higher price, and mechanical focusing in the above proposed lens would be ridiculous).

Ben? Any ideas?

10-16-2007, 12:24 AM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
Yes, by thinking about it, I was further lost as to why Pentax won't come up with affordable SDM lenses. Nikon buys glass from Hoya, puts it in an 18-135mm lens, includes silent in-lens motor, and sells it all day long at about $250.
Nikon has no choice. It needs to provide lenses (affordable ones) for the D40 / D40x buyers; and of course, they cannot use anything else other than SDM. And it's the same that Nikon and Canon's answer to in-body SR is to built dirt cheap VR/IS lenses.

But in the end, you get what you pay for. The pricing would reflect the market positioning of the lens and the lens quality. I would expect most new future lens from Pentax would be SDM. The 18-250 is an exception as it is a rebadged job.
10-16-2007, 12:41 AM   #138
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IMO the problem is the following for Pentax:

If they do make new lenses they have a choice to make: SDM-only, Screwdrive-only (let's write SwD-only) on both as on the DA* lenses.

The dual AF is of course a problem since it is quite expensive as for budget lenses at least. So they will probably either make new budget lenses SDM-only or SwD-only.

If they make them SwD-only, well no SDM and that's it.
If they make them SDM-only, well, no AF on K100D non-super and *ist-D serie. Very bad.

The usual Pentax way would be to use SwD-only to maintain compatibility and not puting too much pressure on price. Of course Hoya is the boss now so maybe it will change.

Just my 2 cents.
10-16-2007, 12:47 AM   #139
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Currently Pentax doesn't produce DSLRs without SDM support and in their place I would start making SDM-only lenses.

10-16-2007, 04:09 AM   #140
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Pentax may introduce a low cost budget kit-zoom with supersonic motor, an update to the current 18-55 and 50-200's, but I expect the prime lenses and the more upmarket zooms to feature double autofocus systems to broaden the market. There's lots of models in the *ist D serie out without support for supersonic, also K100D original model, K110D and Samsung GX-1S and GX-1L. But for a budget zoom that is sold together with the camera, yeah it could very well have supersonic-only.
10-16-2007, 04:39 AM   #141
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Agreed on the cheaper kit lenses. There simply wouldn't be much point in including screwdrive focus in these if all the new cameras support SDM... those of us with K100ds and earlier will already have kit lenses, and the DA lenses are no good for film cameras anyway. It makes sense for them to have SDM only on cheap kit lenses. However I would hope that on higher-end lenses they have both systems. Perhaps more importantly I hope that all bodies continue to incorporate a screw-drive system (unlike Nikon's D40). What I really like about Pentax's entry-level models, as opposed to the Big Two's, is that Pentax don't just assume you don't need or want features, whether it's a top LCD, spot metering, or compatibility with legacy lenses. I hope they continue in this fashion.
10-16-2007, 04:00 PM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
From all the hints and innuendos posted here I have deduced the next sensor
It will be a Samsung CMOS, APS-C (full frame later, though the pulling back of the "ltd's" may mean FF is possible, w/ 30MP(+/- 20%) Equivalent to 10MP due to the new sensor technology . It will incorporate a variation of the Nikon 1/sensel/ 3 color technology....
Pentax has done their own sensor research and even applied for patents of a similar one. They don't depend on others.
10-16-2007, 04:10 PM   #143
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It occurs to me that they seem to depend on others for lenses sometimes, and Nikon depend on Sony for (most of) their sensors, so for Pentax to suddenly produce their own with no outside help would be... um... surprising to say the least.

10-16-2007, 05:16 PM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by ZaphodB Quote
It occurs to me that they seem to depend on others for lenses sometimes, and Nikon depend on Sony for (most of) their sensors, so for Pentax to suddenly produce their own with no outside help would be... um... surprising to say the least.
Even w/ their own research (and patents I'd like to see) most likely they would still contract out the fabrication. Even Nikon contracts w/ Sony w/ sensors that they have "tweaked". Samsung was the likely "partner" but I'm not too sure that Hoya is too thrilled based on the culture thing...
Oh and I doubt that Hoya would give Pentax the blanks at cost. It's just not usually done that way. They would be at a discount though.
10-16-2007, 09:07 PM   #145
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Hi, well this thread has hit 10 pages so I thought I should come in with some worthless comment Personally I just want a 80-200 f2.8 and I'll be happy (even the 60-250 f4 if it is razor sharp at f4).

Are we talking annoucements in January or actual releases of new stuff?? (coz I've seen plenty of announcements in the past that have then take an *awful* long time to hit the shelves) (not just by pentax either)

as for sensors my view as almost all pentax dslrs 'are not going to have a sony sensor' before they are released (including the ist D) and I dont see anyone else who is currently making appropriate sensors AND is willing to sell them, my money is on sony sensors again. (I am glad to see conformation of not foveon - I know it is 3 channels etc but in my area people just look at the X times Y = mp = sales price - so big is better

While I dont have any real idea, next year I expect to see a new 10mp cam (k50d?? etc) become entry level replacing k100d. A new 12mp above the k10d (k5d??), and then considering there has been rumors going around for over 6 months about sony releasing a pro 14-16mp camera early next year, I expect to see this sensor in a k1d.

Phil

Last edited by philmorley; 10-16-2007 at 09:15 PM.
10-16-2007, 09:23 PM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Even w/ their own research (and patents I'd like to see) most likely they would still contract out the fabrication. Even Nikon contracts w/ Sony w/ sensors that they have "tweaked". Samsung was the likely "partner" but I'm not too sure that Hoya is too thrilled based on the culture thing...
Oh and I doubt that Hoya would give Pentax the blanks at cost. It's just not usually done that way. They would be at a discount though.
What?

Hoya owns what was Pentax and now it is just a division of Hoya so unless there is some sort of surviving corporate entity for Hoya to "sell" to (what we call an "inter-company transfer" where I work) and some sort of tax or other reason to do so, anything Pentax uses or can use from the Hoya product line would simply be part of the cost of goods for Pentax brand products. Any markup or profit that others pay for similar items or that Pentax used to pay Hoya for similar items would have to be removed and the real cost of that item applied to the Pentax product where it was used.

It's not like you can make up your costs however you want. Everything used to build your product has to tie back to what you actually paid for that item (or an average of what you paid, or LIFO or FIFO, but still it is based upon actual material costs) plus any overhead you apply. Even your overhead applied has to utlimately tie to the real overhead costs like your buildings and other costs that you can associate with the product and it's manufacture. The accountants and auditors spend a lot of time making sure that all of this is true.

I am sure that Hoya intends to completely integrate all areas that reduce costs and improve efficiencies for Pentax, a fact that Hoya management has made very clear in their statements to date, and I would be surprised if Glass is not a major part of that plan for cameras, endoscopes, and anything else that uses optical glass. After all, this is quite an advantage for Hoya, who is a very major supplier of optical glass, which means improved margins and profits for the Pentax products versus the competition.

Ray
10-16-2007, 09:33 PM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by philmorley Quote
Are we talking annoucements in January or actual releases of new stuff?? (coz I've seen plenty of announcements in the past that have then take an *awful* long time to hit the shelves) (not just by pentax either)
It's almost definitely announcements in January leading up to PMA. Benjikan was apparently expecting these announcements at the Salon de la Photo, but that clearly didn't happen. But given that announcements are forthcoming soon, there's really only one logical time.

And I think it's pretttty safe to assume six months or more to actual market.
10-17-2007, 12:48 AM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Pentax may introduce a low cost budget kit-zoom with supersonic motor, an update to the current 18-55 and 50-200's

Not good enough. One 16-135mm lens like Nikon offers, and has proven the intense desirability of - is needed.
10-17-2007, 01:28 AM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
Not good enough. One 16-135mm lens like Nikon offers, and has proven the intense desirability of - is needed.
Pentax has filed patents for a 16-135 lens, but it is unlikey to be only supersonic. If it has supersonic, it will surely have the screwdriven autofocus as well - a double autofocus system just like the DA Star's. Why? Because 16-135 is a length I believe many who has *ist D-serie bodies with the 18-55 would like to upgrade to. If they are not able to use the 16-135 with autofocus, then they will be very displeased. Releasing the 18-55 with supersonic only is not as conflict laden because it is sold together with the camera as a kit and those who have the 18-55 screwdriven is not likely to change to another 18-55. So, for all lenses that users of kit lenses are likely to upgrade to - double autofocus sysems is a must have.
10-17-2007, 05:30 AM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Pentax has filed patents for a 16-135 lens, but it is unlikey to be only supersonic. If it has supersonic, it will surely have the screwdriven autofocus as well - a double autofocus system just like the DA Star's. Why? Because 16-135 is a length I believe many who has *ist D-serie bodies with the 18-55 would like to upgrade to. If they are not able to use the 16-135 with autofocus, then they will be very displeased. Releasing the 18-55 with supersonic only is not as conflict laden because it is sold together with the camera as a kit and those who have the 18-55 screwdriven is not likely to change to another 18-55. So, for all lenses that users of kit lenses are likely to upgrade to - double autofocus sysems is a must have.
As I see it, Hoya wants to increase benefits and to make SDM-only lenses is a way to force the people owning a *Ist, K100 or K110 to buy the new cameras supporting SDM lenses. Pentax seemed to respect the costumer in those things and it ended up being merged to Hoya to survive, I dont know what make you think that Hoya is going to approach the bussiness in the same way. At any case, we will see it in the next future. I really hope you got reason.
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