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12-29-2008, 06:20 AM   #616
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
It outdid my K20d/31ltd combo on a couple of indoor low light shots.
Would you care to expand on that? The crops you posted are hardly anything to write home about IMHO. In fact, if I were you, I woudn't even have posted them. So maybe it's just me and I can't see what you see.

For actual comparison, if you wish to take a look at one of my pictures, here's one taken with the 31 ltd wide open, ISO 560, 1/10s, handheld. I'm sorry but I must really be missing something because your shots all looked blurry and smeary to me. If I didn't know I'd say they were taken with an ordinary compact cam.


Last edited by kristoffon; 12-29-2008 at 06:38 AM.
12-29-2008, 07:17 AM   #617
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I doubt the G1's sensor is better than the K20D's one; in fact I'd say it's the other way around. By a large margin.
One thing was really impressive for the G1: it's autofocus. It's contrast detection-based, yet as fast as a phase detection AF.
If they showed it with a wide slow lens it had to be since DOF would be really big (small sensor also helps this) and somebody would hit focus simply eyeballing the distance to the subject and selecting the distance on the focus ring.

Let's see how it does when they stick a fast prime on it, or any long lens for the matter.
12-29-2008, 07:25 AM   #618
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They look fuzzy to me as well :-P
12-29-2008, 12:34 PM   #619
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QuoteOriginally posted by kristoffon Quote
Would you care to expand on that? The crops you posted are hardly anything to write home about IMHO. In fact, if I were you, I woudn't even have posted them. So maybe it's just me and I can't see what you see.
.
Well, thanks for the compliment

Those are not 100% crops, and are far from actual art shots. They are just quick snaps that my g/f took and I compared them to a similar shot taken with my K20d.

The sensor in the G1 isn't better than the K20d. I never said that. You guys are way too sensitive about your gear. The fact is that the G1 is a pretty amazing little camera, made even more so by the ability to use an adapter to run other glass (like Leica M lenses, Voigtlander RF lenses, etc). As a RF replacement or small street shooter setup, its very attractive. Just depends on what/how you shoot. It also has an articulated screen which for some uses (like my g/f's needs) is a deal-maker.

I did however just send back a K200d though in favor of the G1 (again, for my g/f, not me). imho it outperforms it for a user who doesn't want to be bothered with dealing with Pentax "features." It just depends on your needs.

And those shots were taken under conditions that the K200d (with 16-45) needed 1/5 second or more exposure at iso1600. We're talking lousy light. Again, not a typical strength for Pentax, though I can get my K20d to behave under those conditions. But it takes some doing. The G1 was just point and shoot...


Last edited by nostatic; 12-29-2008 at 12:42 PM.
12-29-2008, 12:50 PM   #620
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Well, thanks for the compliment

Those are not 100% crops, and are far from actual art shots. They are just quick snaps that my g/f took and I compared them to a similar shot taken with my K20d.
I understand that, but you posted them as examples of the G1 outperforming the K20D + 31mm Ltd. What I saw were blurry shots worthy of a cheap compact cam.

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
I just think the G1 is flat out better than Km or K200d.
You must use some definition of "better" that's not in my dictionary...

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
And those shots were taken under conditions that the K200d (with 16-45) needed 1/5 second exposure at iso1600. We're talking lousy light. Again, not a typical strength for Pentax, though I can get my K20d to behave under those conditions. But it takes some doing. The G1 was just point and shoot...
So let's compare apples to apples. Please take a look at this shot. It used the 18-250 zoom, so f/5.6 aperture at 77mm, ISO 1600, 1/15s aperture, and on top of that is a panning shot. So maybe it doesn't show as much detail but its not bad - check the leg of the skater.

Then I had an idea. I downloaded the image file you posted previously, looked at the exif, and lo and behold - it is ISO 400. The shot you brag about how great your camera is at low light is taken at ISO 400 and shows about the same level of detail my K200D panning shot shows at ISO 1600.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Please go home now.
12-29-2008, 01:11 PM   #621
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QuoteOriginally posted by kristoffon Quote
I
You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Please go home now.
Thank you for pixel peeping. Like I said, my g/f did a point and shoot with it.

Whatever. I let my photos do my talking...that's the whole point:

hk08 - Page 1

yosemite08 - Page 1

I try to avoid pixel peeping, and I don't shoot test shots or brick walls. These photos impressed me because I know the subject and the conditions and know what other gear delivers. Apologies if that didn't come across or if they didn't serve as the ultimate controlled experiment. Enjoy your day...
12-29-2008, 01:21 PM   #622
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Nostatic, you may call it "sensitivity about our gear" but I'll take the K20D against the G1 any day (or night). They are not even playing in the same league, so I'm sorry I won't just take your word that a G1 can "outdo" the K20D/31mm combo.
I understand you may like the G1, but that's another thing.
12-29-2008, 01:31 PM   #623
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Nostatic, you may call it "sensitivity about our gear" but I'll take the K20D against the G1 any day (or night). They are not even playing in the same league, so I'm sorry I won't just take your word that a G1 can "outdo" the K20D/31mm combo.
I understand you may like the G1, but that's another thing.
If you read what I said, I indicated that the G1 outdid my K20d/31ltd "on a couple of shots." As you well know (unless you always shoot manual), letting the camera meter (P mode) and focus can yield inconsistent results in low light. I have gotten excellent results with my K20d and a variety of lenses, but I'm the first to admit that it isn't as "smart" as it could/should be wrt metering and focus. You have to be involved. Part of what impressed me with the G1 was that it in fact is *very* smart about those things, and the OIS in the lens may give a bit more of a low light advantage than the SR in the Pentax body.

I think some of you guys just read too much into it. The G1 is an amazing little system but of course it isn't going to out perform a K20d all the time. But it's performance did surprise me, especially given that it was a "lowly" slow kit lens.

The Pentax stuff requires that the shooter be more involved in the process. Your work is rewarded with excellent results, but it isn't as dead simple as the G1. Horses for courses. There are people on other boards (guys who actually shoot instead of just pixel peep and test things) who have adopted the G1 and actually gotten rid of other APS systems (including one guy to dumped his D200). It isn't perfect, but it could give the APS systems a run for their money. We live in interesting times...

12-29-2008, 02:34 PM   #624
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Hate to say it, but I think my F30 is sharper than the G1. Maybe the G1 included lens isn't as good? Reduced pictures should look a lot sharper than that...
12-29-2008, 03:11 PM   #625
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I'm testing a G1 right now for a review and while it's a fun camera to use, it suffers from typical Panasonic problems (i.e., excessive image noise/noise reduction smearing), albeit less so than their point & shoots (which you'd expect given the much, much lower pixel density). I'm not too impressed with the kit lens, and I really miss the viewfinder, though the articulated screen is very nice. The EVF is crap, as always.

It can produce some nice looking images (cf. the shot of the glass from nostatic), but just check out the noise issues in the photo above that one.

Certainly not worth $800.

edit: and I certainly don't see how it's any more uncomplicated than a K200D or K20D on Auto.
12-29-2008, 03:17 PM   #626
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote

Horses for courses. .
Thanks for posting your observations. It looks like it might be a good additional tool. As much as I don't like shooting multiple systems I don't have the time to wait for Pentax to fill my wants.
12-29-2008, 03:26 PM   #627
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
it suffers from typical Panasonic problems (i.e., excessive image noise/noise reduction smearing)
Does this occur when shooting RAW? Would you let us know when and where the review will be published?

Thanks,
12-29-2008, 03:30 PM   #628
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I wish I could tell you, but I'm having a hell of a time getting the Panasonic .RW2 format to do anything on my system. In Lightroom 2.2 and SilkyPix (which shipped with the camera) the images show up fine in thumbnail mode and as soon as I actually load them they go black. It's the weirdest damn thing. I had the same problem with the FX-150 when I reviewed that one, too.
12-29-2008, 05:24 PM   #629
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Nostatic, it appears that you've run into a group who feels that the G1 can not, no way no how, even approach the performance of a DSLR. Resistance is futile. There's clearly no way any device stuffed full of innovative technology and a DSLR-sized sensor, and widely praised by people who've tried them and found them comparable to similarly-priced devices, could possibly be any better than an inexpensive compact. Certainly not on par with (in some situations) a camera with a full-fledged optical mirror or prism viewfinder. Give in.
12-29-2008, 07:37 PM   #630
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
Nostatic, it appears that you've run into a group who feels that the G1 can not, no way no how, even approach the performance of a DSLR. Resistance is futile. There's clearly no way any device stuffed full of innovative technology and a DSLR-sized sensor, and widely praised by people who've tried them and found them comparable to similarly-priced devices, could possibly be any better than an inexpensive compact. Certainly not on par with (in some situations) a camera with a full-fledged optical mirror or prism viewfinder. Give in.
True. While I'm at it, I should just toss out my DLux4 (and smash up my old Dlux3, which took most of the photos in my Hong Kong set) as there is no way that it can hold a candle to a dSLR. I have been absorbed. All our limiteds are belong to us.

Oh, but the FF offerings from Sony and Canikon are overpriced and don't deliver either. Obviously Pentax, especially the 10mp CCD iterations, are the pinnacle
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