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12-30-2008, 11:17 AM   #646
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GaryM, well said.
But now we found out it's not really outperforming the K20D/31mm Limited, except for AF when the G1 gladly used it's AF-assist lamp And as a small, quiet camera.
So, can we let this rest?

News? I have news for you! In 2009 we'll see from Pentax something interesting. Really!

12-30-2008, 11:22 AM   #647
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
I still don't like EVFs, though this one is better than previous ones. I do think that the G1 is technologically superior to the Km/K200d, but as I've said before, technology doesn't necessarily equate to better pictures. The Pentax advantage is the glass, which of course can't be underestimated. The K20d is a lot more camera than the G1 (better sensor and easier access to manual controls among other things), but again if size is an issue...

I find very hard to believe that the lattest incarnation of the 10Mp sensor coupled with lattest Pentax electronics (K-m) could be inferior to an almost double in density one. Even considering the CCD vs CMOS technological difference I am still VERY skeptical about this. I am talking about the noise treatment but also DR and other esential picture atributes. Also I want to point out the fact that in DxO Mark K200D is about 15-20% above the K10 in Low light ISO and K-m has even further improvements. Finally until they measure the real ISO of G1 I'll take any value with a grain of salt. At least K200 is almost dead on the standard values and other cameras -wink-50D-wink for example cheat as hell about this.

G1 vs K300 will be interesting indeed, but by then the G2 (or whatever the next u4/3 variant is called) will be out, will do video, and who knows what else. In this fight Panny has advantages and disadvantages. They don't have a rich SLR history, so in some sense they are free to go a different route. They don't have to worry about legacy glass, etc. Plus they have the whole video side of things to draw from. As still and video converge (D90, 5Dmk2 etc), it will be tough for the "pure camera" companies to cope. To me that is where the interesting battle lies, and where companies like Pentax will either have to forge new alliances (JVC?) or be happy with niche markets.

You forget the biggest disadvantage of them all ... they have a way bigger videocamera business than dslr and I am pretty sure they (as well as Sony, Samsung, Canon as well) won't shoot themselfs in the foot by losing toomuch of that market to cameras. Yes you're talking about technology they have and convergence and I'll say it will be a "political" decission inside Panasonic to criple video functions in those cameras. Imagine the pressure top level managers from the video camera business are puttin' on the very small DSLR unit. And also the p&s division from Panasonic (much more succesfull than the "DSLR" one squeeze them not to get too many high end customers from them to whom they sell all those LX3s. In fact G1 is not a DSLR all together and I don't think we're talking only semantics here it's more like a very advanced p&s with larger sensor and removable lens so even more the danger on the p&s sales on the top end. Nikon and Pentax are the ones without a video division to defend.
.....
Radu
12-30-2008, 11:49 AM   #648
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I haven't handled the Km, but I was making the assumption that the sensor and electronics are on par with the K200d which I was not impressed with. I don't put much stock in machine tests...I slapped a known-good 16-45 lens on a brand new K200d, took some shots, and wasn't impressed. Totally subjective, but so is photography. Mostly I was disappointed that the K200d wasn't lighter and smaller than it was - essentially the same as a K20d but with old tech sensor and a control layout that I didn't care for. But again, that is subjective and another rant. I do think that the K20d has the best ergos of *any* dSLR on the market...that is one reason I have it.

As for video that is another discussion. The issue of political crippling is interesting and I've gone on record elsewhere as stating that video on the 5Kmk2 and D90 as currently implemented is more parlor trick than anything else. It isn't clear to me that the dSLR form factor and mechanics are "right" for video. Time will tell. The G1 though is a different beast, and the semantics matter to the marketing folk, and hence the public. While it isn't a SLR physical design, it does have interchangeable lenses. So then what it is? Either interesting or a dead end. Time will tell on that one as well.

And while Nikon and Pentax don't have video to "defend", they also don't have the access to the R&D budgets that the others have. It cuts both ways.
12-30-2008, 12:34 PM   #649
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
I haven't handled the Km, but I was making the assumption that the sensor and electronics are on par with the K200d which I was not impressed with. I don't put much stock in machine tests...I slapped a known-good 16-45 lens on a brand new K200d, took some shots, and wasn't impressed. Totally subjective, but so is photography. Mostly I was disappointed that the K200d wasn't lighter and smaller than it was - essentially the same as a K20d but with old tech sensor and a control layout that I didn't care for. But again, that is subjective and another rant. I do think that the K20d has the best ergos of *any* dSLR on the market...that is one reason I have it.

As for video that is another discussion. The issue of political crippling is interesting and I've gone on record elsewhere as stating that video on the 5Kmk2 and D90 as currently implemented is more parlor trick than anything else. It isn't clear to me that the dSLR form factor and mechanics are "right" for video. Time will tell. The G1 though is a different beast, and the semantics matter to the marketing folk, and hence the public. While it isn't a SLR physical design, it does have interchangeable lenses. So then what it is? Either interesting or a dead end. Time will tell on that one as well.

And while Nikon and Pentax don't have video to "defend", they also don't have the access to the R&D budgets that the others have. It cuts both ways.
There's always RED DSMC.....
Maybe someday they'll port K mount lenses...
The RED is here, DSMC is here, DSLR executives crying in their offices! - 1001 Noisy Cameras

12-30-2008, 01:16 PM   #650
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
There's always RED DSMC.....
Maybe someday they'll port K mount lenses...
The RED is here, DSMC is here, DSLR executives crying in their offices! - 1001 Noisy Cameras
don't get me started...I've been eyeing the Scarlet thing for a bit. Our graphics lab has been wanting to do a RED system for awhile as they are doing high rez/high fps capture with other hardware. They are somewhat the king of "we'll ship it tomorrow" but I like their approach.
12-31-2008, 01:10 AM   #651
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
News? I have news for you! In 2009 we'll see from Pentax something interesting. Really!
A couple of leaks wouldn't hurt. I hope someone chimes in with info from insiders.

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
I haven't handled the Km, but I was making the assumption that the sensor and electronics are on par with the K200d which I was not impressed with. I don't put much stock in machine tests...I slapped a known-good 16-45 lens on a brand new K200d, took some shots, and wasn't impressed. Totally subjective, but so is photography. Mostly I was disappointed that the K200d wasn't lighter and smaller than it was - essentially the same as a K20d but with old tech sensor and a control layout that I didn't care for. But again, that is subjective and another rant. I do think that the K20d has the best ergos of *any* dSLR on the market...that is one reason I have it.

As for video that is another discussion. The issue of political crippling is interesting and I've gone on record elsewhere as stating that video on the 5Kmk2 and D90 as currently implemented is more parlor trick than anything else. It isn't clear to me that the dSLR form factor and mechanics are "right" for video. Time will tell. The G1 though is a different beast, and the semantics matter to the marketing folk, and hence the public. While it isn't a SLR physical design, it does have interchangeable lenses. So then what it is? Either interesting or a dead end. Time will tell on that one as well.

And while Nikon and Pentax don't have video to "defend", they also don't have the access to the R&D budgets that the others have. It cuts both ways.
It's almost a certainty that we'll find video in our DSLRs in the near future (at least the high-end ones), and the consumers seem to approve of it, so no sense in tackling the topic over which brands will include video and which ones will not. It's a safe bet that all DSLR/interchangeable-lens cameras will include video at some point. All manufacturers have had digital cameras with video mode, so it's also safe to say that any manufacturer has the know-how already to include even a rudimentary form of video (VGA quality) in their own cameras.

Even though DSLRs seem to have bad ergonomics for video capture, I would think that consumers in general would overlook that in favor of a nice-to-have feature for those spur-of-the-moment videos they might wanna take. And I doubt video quality would be even scrutinized and loathed as much, since today's generation are used to watching overly compressed and downsized YouTube videos.

QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
There's always RED DSMC.....
Maybe someday they'll port K mount lenses...
The RED is here, DSMC is here, DSLR executives crying in their offices! - 1001 Noisy Cameras
QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
don't get me started...I've been eyeing the Scarlet thing for a bit. Our graphics lab has been wanting to do a RED system for awhile as they are doing high rez/high fps capture with other hardware. They are somewhat the king of "we'll ship it tomorrow" but I like their approach.
The RED system is certainly viable... for videographers. Unless RED drops their sensor prices accordingly, I don't see it being a match for DSLRs, even the high end ones like the D3. It certainly undercuts pro videocamera prices, but for those of us with only two grand to spend on a high-end DSLR body, tops (my limit's even lower), the RED remains an interesting, and unattainable, prospect.

And I doubt they'd include a K-mount adapter in there, unless Pentax grows a huge market share. A K-mount camera able to shoot video would most likely come from Pentax and Samsung first than those guys over at RED.

I could be wrong, though. With Jannard easily changing his company's direction at the drop of a hat (or in this case, at the drop of a D90 and 5D Mk II), we may still see a K-mount adapter for his system.
12-31-2008, 06:45 AM   #652
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
It's almost a certainty that we'll find video in our DSLRs in the near future (at least the high-end ones), and the consumers seem to approve of it, so no sense in tackling the topic over which brands will include video and which ones will not. It's a safe bet that all DSLR/interchangeable-lens cameras will include video at some point. All manufacturers have had digital cameras with video mode, so it's also safe to say that any manufacturer has the know-how already to include even a rudimentary form of video (VGA quality) in their own cameras.
In the current thinking about video in a DSLR, it's tantamount to a hammer with a laser guided sight. Although the casual user might find the feature cool, to those who buy the high end cameras, the avid photographer, whether amateur or pro, this feature is on average not what they're looking for, particularly if it means a feature they would want or need is left out because of the inclusion of the other technology.

And then there's the compromise in technology which you point out with your comments about RED - at least in the next 2-3 years, no manufacturer will provide an affordable camera with full DV and DSLR features, including interchangeable lenses and capable sensors, water resistant/proof body that can do both equally well and still keep it at the consumer level pricing.

QuoteQuote:
Even though DSLRs seem to have bad ergonomics for video capture, I would think that consumers in general would overlook that in favor of a nice-to-have feature for those spur-of-the-moment videos they might wanna take. And I doubt video quality would be even scrutinized and loathed as much, since today's generation are used to watching overly compressed and downsized YouTube videos.
Excellent point!

While most digital camcorders that do photos do a mediocre job at taking photos (1-2 MP and fuzzy at that) and most P&S cameras that do video do a mediocre job (320x240) - in comes the Nikon D90 with 12 MP sensor and HD AVI video with audio at 24fps. DSLR + HD video for about $1,300, including a lens. Does it compare to the capabilities of a JVC DV with 3CCD HD video sensor? No more than my cell phone camera capabilities compare to my K10D. But as Ashton Kutcher would have it, it's cool so we should all buy it - after all, apparently it does serve both purposes reasonably well.
12-31-2008, 09:41 AM   #653
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
I haven't handled the Km, but I was making the assumption that the sensor and electronics are on par with the K200d which I was not impressed with. I don't put much stock in machine tests...I slapped a known-good 16-45 lens on a brand new K200d, took some shots, and wasn't impressed. Totally subjective, but so is photography. Mostly I was disappointed that the K200d wasn't lighter and smaller than it was - essentially the same as a K20d but with old tech sensor and a control layout that I didn't care for. But again, that is subjective and another rant. I do think that the K20d has the best ergos of *any* dSLR on the market...that is one reason I have it.

It seems like a point and shoot would be more suitable to your photography skills, based on your comments on Pentax cameras and the pictures that you posted.

12-31-2008, 10:24 AM   #654
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QuoteOriginally posted by Conan Quote
It seems like a point and shoot would be more suitable to your photography skills, based on your comments on Pentax cameras and the pictures that you posted.
Could be. Most of these were taken with a P&S and I have them printed at 30"x20" and they work well, should be in a show mid-09.

hk08 - Page 1

A few are with the Pentax though.

Perhaps you could show some of your work so I can learn?
12-31-2008, 10:34 AM   #655
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogroast Quote

While most digital camcorders that do photos do a mediocre job at taking photos (1-2 MP and fuzzy at that) and most P&S cameras that do video do a mediocre job (320x240) - in comes the Nikon D90 with 12 MP sensor and HD AVI video with audio at 24fps. DSLR + HD video for about $1,300, including a lens. Does it compare to the capabilities of a JVC DV with 3CCD HD video sensor? No more than my cell phone camera capabilities compare to my K10D. But as Ashton Kutcher would have it, it's cool so we should all buy it - after all, apparently it does serve both purposes reasonably well.
The issue is sound. The D90 captures mono 11Khz. The Canon at least has the ability for you to use a breakout box and use decent mics. This is the problem with coming at the problem from a straight visual standpoint (ie the still world). Unless you're going to bring field sound gear (and btw, does the D90 or 5D have smpte?) you're out of luck. I suppose if you're shooting a music video then it is ok becuase you're going to cut to another sound track and likely don't need any ambient.

To me this is why it is still a parlor trick and really useful for an incredibly small number of people. I have used the HD video out from my p&s, and for youtube it is decent. But I also laid in a soundtrack over the top and just used some of the ambient noise as efx. It works surprisingly well, but one reason I used it was the small size of the camera - I was going down a concrete slide/luge and carrying a dSLR would have been more difficult (YouTube - big bear alpine slide).

Great picture with bad sound makes a bad impression....more so than great sound with bad picture. The eye will fill in more details than the ear will.

Last edited by nostatic; 12-31-2008 at 10:55 AM.
01-01-2009, 02:44 AM   #656
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogroast Quote
In the current thinking about video in a DSLR, it's tantamount to a hammer with a laser guided sight. Although the casual user might find the feature cool, to those who buy the high end cameras, the avid photographer, whether amateur or pro, this feature is on average not what they're looking for, particularly if it means a feature they would want or need is left out because of the inclusion of the other technology.

And then there's the compromise in technology which you point out with your comments about RED - at least in the next 2-3 years, no manufacturer will provide an affordable camera with full DV and DSLR features, including interchangeable lenses and capable sensors, water resistant/proof body that can do both equally well and still keep it at the consumer level pricing.

While most digital camcorders that do photos do a mediocre job at taking photos (1-2 MP and fuzzy at that) and most P&S cameras that do video do a mediocre job (320x240) - in comes the Nikon D90 with 12 MP sensor and HD AVI video with audio at 24fps. DSLR + HD video for about $1,300, including a lens. Does it compare to the capabilities of a JVC DV with 3CCD HD video sensor? No more than my cell phone camera capabilities compare to my K10D. But as Ashton Kutcher would have it, it's cool so we should all buy it - after all, apparently it does serve both purposes reasonably well.
Very sound points, sir. I agree that most consumers of high-end DSLRs are more or less oblivious to the video aspect of the D90 and 5D Mk II in favor of pure still photographic capability, but it's not too much a stretch of the imagination to think that video capture will eventually come with entry-level DSLRs. I'd even argue that it is in that very market (market for entry-levels) that the video mode will sell very well, and I would not be surprised to see manufacturers rush towards being the first to offer video mode in an affordable package.

I think the D90 and 5D Mk II are mini-experiments for Canon and Nikon to see how the general hobbyist market reacts to such a convergence of still and motion pictures. I haven't heard overly negative reactions to it, as long as those cameras still deliver the still photography goods (which both do, though the 5D Mk II's seeing some hiccups).

We'll probably have to wait and see some more if there are other adverse effects on still photography with the merge (sensor durability, etc.), but so far so good, in the sense that yes, video mode is severely crippled with the lack of AF (could probably be solved by the m4/3 contrast detection AF system) or lack of decent sound (pretty much par with P&S digicams), but the still photography is still the same DSLR quality people have grown to love (and pay for).

I'd like to think that Canon's issues with the 5D Mk II recently are altogether isolated from their attempt to merge still and motion photography.

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
The issue is sound. The D90 captures mono 11Khz. The Canon at least has the ability for you to use a breakout box and use decent mics. This is the problem with coming at the problem from a straight visual standpoint (ie the still world). Unless you're going to bring field sound gear (and btw, does the D90 or 5D have smpte?) you're out of luck. I suppose if you're shooting a music video then it is ok becuase you're going to cut to another sound track and likely don't need any ambient.

To me this is why it is still a parlor trick and really useful for an incredibly small number of people. I have used the HD video out from my p&s, and for youtube it is decent. But I also laid in a soundtrack over the top and just used some of the ambient noise as efx. It works surprisingly well, but one reason I used it was the small size of the camera - I was going down a concrete slide/luge and carrying a dSLR would have been more difficult (YouTube - big bear alpine slide).

Great picture with bad sound makes a bad impression....more so than great sound with bad picture. The eye will fill in more details than the ear will.
I agree with your assessment. Being a film graduate (but not practicing the craft now in my wholly different work), we were taught not to overlook audio when making films, as most raw filmmakers do.
01-01-2009, 09:38 AM   #657
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
Very sound points, sir. I agree that most consumers of high-end DSLRs are more or less oblivious to the video aspect of the D90 and 5D Mk II in favor of pure still photographic capability, but it's not too much a stretch of the imagination to think that video capture will eventually come with entry-level DSLRs. I'd even argue that it is in that very market (market for entry-levels) that the video mode will sell very well, and I would not be surprised to see manufacturers rush towards being the first to offer video mode in an affordable package.

I think the D90 and 5D Mk II are mini-experiments for Canon and Nikon to see how the general hobbyist market reacts to such a convergence of still and motion pictures. I haven't heard overly negative reactions to it, as long as those cameras still deliver the still photography goods (which both do, though the 5D Mk II's seeing some hiccups).

We'll probably have to wait and see some more if there are other adverse effects on still photography with the merge (sensor durability, etc.), but so far so good, in the sense that yes, video mode is severely crippled with the lack of AF (could probably be solved by the m4/3 contrast detection AF system) or lack of decent sound (pretty much par with P&S digicams), but the still photography is still the same DSLR quality people have grown to love (and pay for).

I'd like to think that Canon's issues with the 5D Mk II recently are altogether isolated from their attempt to merge still and motion photography.



I agree with your assessment. Being a film graduate (but not practicing the craft now in my wholly different work), we were taught not to overlook audio when making films, as most raw filmmakers do.
Vincent Laforetís Blog
01-01-2009, 10:57 AM   #658
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QuoteOriginally posted by dopeytree Quote
Yes, he agrees about sound:

Tips and Tricks for the 5D MKII - PART II - Audio Vincent Laforet’s Blog

And note that he's shooting RED now in addition to the 5D

A small camcorder will serve a typical prosumer better on a lot of fronts. At this point, the video-on-dslr is useful for someone like Laforet who has great glass, appreciates the difference that the bigger sensor will make for video, and knows how to shoot. It may prove to be an interesting tool in the arsenal of filmakers though...time will tell.
01-01-2009, 10:57 AM   #659
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Video w/ DSLRs and big aperture lenses seems to work pretty well. I took a quick browse and found these that were pretty impressive:
By Your Side on Flickr - Photo Sharing!


It's still in its infancy so it'll be improved upon quickly...I'm sure when the time is right, Pentax or, more likely Samsung will add it since the younger generation likes video a lot more...
01-01-2009, 11:15 AM   #660
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
Video w/ DSLRs and big aperture lenses seems to work pretty well. I took a quick browse and found these that were pretty impressive:
By Your Side on Flickr - Photo Sharing!


It's still in its infancy so it'll be improved upon quickly...I'm sure when the time is right, Pentax or, more likely Samsung will add it since the younger generation likes video a lot more...
I've put the best videos made with the canon 5d mark II on myblog M.ť.m.o.i.r.e.s

I hope pentax can do something like this with their cameras as it's the depth of field and low light performance you dont get on ordinary hd camcorders unless you start shooting with red but thats cinema quality!
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