[Ron Boggs]

Since when did Pentax ever give a rip about what's happening in the marketplace? Been buying lots of Pentax bodies and lenses for more than 20 years and not once did they seem to be even close in the "specifications wars" with other brands. Instead they come up with things people who love to shoot love to shoot with.

Worries about Pentax going under due to competition? Well, if you've always run the company with 2% market share, if you continue to get 2% market share then nothing changes--presuming the market stays the same size. A shrinking market is a different beast with tougher solutions--but that's a different discussion I'll leave to the world economists who haven't solved the shrinking market issue so far this year...Point here is we can't expect a Pentax camera body to solve the world economic problem, so I'm not going to type more silliness about it. Losing market share can be bad if your business plan requires 20% or more of the pie. If your business plan is to maintain 2% with long term growth of 20% bringing the total needed to 2.4% of the market by 2025 then Pentax is doing just fine.

Pentax has "rescued" itself many times with just one decent product introduction. In just the past 10 years: One autofocus medium format body--the world's first; or one waterproof point and shoot; or one weather resistant DSLR body with high resolution APS-C sensor. Pentax then gets value-added sales off the product like the new lenses that tied into the medium format body 10 years ago. Or they spread the new idea into new offerings...like lots of waterproof point and shoots or lots of weatherproofed DSLRs in the recent term.

When these neat ideas run their course in a year or ten years, Pentax will have something new that will earn enough market respect to maintain their small market share. Nope, not likely it will be a white camera body, but who'd a thunk white lenses would be anything big for Canon? (And yes, Pentax did the white lens thing for 20 years too with A* and F* telephoto lenses for 35mm and M* lenses for 67 format and A* & FA* white lenses for 645 format.) And just as surely as the ugly white camera body won't be a market share saver for Pentax, neither will anything that keeps up with the Jones: FF, improved autofocus, more birding lenses, telephoto macro lens, HDR etc ad nauseum.

Anybody looking to keep up with the Jones or to be a "me too" really bought the wrong brand when they got into Pentax. Anybody looking for an artistic tool for rendering wonderful images may end up happy with Pentax. Took me 5 years to give up on hopes of competiting in the specs wars, but by then I was busy shooting saleable images and not judging the equipment by anything other than the results.

Funny that the most revered names like Leica or Hasselblad are not associated with the largest amount of market share. They carve out their niche without the fastest autofocus speed nor with the highest number of lens introductions each year--Gee, sounds kind of familiar. If you say the key to Leica's market share is the quality of the glass, perhaps that can be equated to high end Pentax glass and it's respectability in the marketplace. Or with Hassy, one could point to the high res medium format backs (that until recently were the highest res. available)--Oh, kind of like Pentax having the highest res. APS-C sensor as recently as a year ago?

Pentax is it's own kind of critter with it's own kind of appeal. Nope, not the appeal that other companies tell us is important, but the appeal that wins out most perhaps with those shooting for artistic reasons. Let the business model shooters shoot some other brand.

Forecast calls for a foot of snow tomorrow, so Christmas day in the mountains of Montana will be great and the images our family shoots will be lots of fun and shot with several Pentax bodies--both film and digital. I promise to take more sledding photos than boring--"here's our tree" photos (though we hiked into the hill beside our house to find our tree--$5 U.S. Forest Service Christmas Tree Permit--no kidding). And I promise not to waste energy taking horrible pet photos--though my 13 year old will "flash shoot" the dog 'til it gets sunburned. Enjoy the holiday season!

[creampuff]

And the Chicken Little Award goes to...

[séamuis]

Since when did Pentax ever give a rip about what's happening in the marketplace? Been buying lots of Pentax bodies and lenses for more than 20 years and not once did they seem to be even close in the "specifications wars" with other brands. Instead they come up with things people who love to shoot love to shoot with.

Worries about Pentax going under due to competition? Well, if you've always run the company with 2% market share, if you continue to get 2% market share then nothing changes--presuming the market stays the same size. A shrinking market is a different beast with tougher solutions--but that's a different discussion I'll leave to the world economists who haven't solved the shrinking market issue so far this year...Point here is we can't expect a Pentax camera body to solve the world economic problem, so I'm not going to type more silliness about it. Losing market share can be bad if your business plan requires 20% or more of the pie. If your business plan is to maintain 2% with long term growth of 20% bringing the total needed to 2.4% of the market by 2025 then Pentax is doing just fine.

Pentax has "rescued" itself many times with just one decent product introduction. In just the past 10 years: One autofocus medium format body--the world's first; or one waterproof point and shoot; or one weather resistant DSLR body with high resolution APS-C sensor. Pentax then gets value-added sales off the product like the new lenses that tied into the medium format body 10 years ago. Or they spread the new idea into new offerings...like lots of waterproof point and shoots or lots of weatherproofed DSLRs in the recent term.

When these neat ideas run their course in a year or ten years, Pentax will have something new that will earn enough market respect to maintain their small market share. Nope, not likely it will be a white camera body, but who'd a thunk white lenses would be anything big for Canon? (And yes, Pentax did the white lens thing for 20 years too with A* and F* telephoto lenses for 35mm and M* lenses for 67 format and A* & FA* white lenses for 645 format.) And just as surely as the ugly white camera body won't be a market share saver for Pentax, neither will anything that keeps up with the Jones: FF, improved autofocus, more birding lenses, telephoto macro lens, HDR etc ad nauseum.

Anybody looking to keep up with the Jones or to be a "me too" really bought the wrong brand when they got into Pentax. Anybody looking for an artistic tool for rendering wonderful images may end up happy with Pentax. Took me 5 years to give up on hopes of competiting in the specs wars, but by then I was busy shooting saleable images and not judging the equipment by anything other than the results.

Funny that the most revered names like Leica or Hasselblad are not associated with the largest amount of market share. They carve out their niche without the fastest autofocus speed nor with the highest number of lens introductions each year--Gee, sounds kind of familiar. If you say the key to Leica's market share is the quality of the glass, perhaps that can be equated to high end Pentax glass and it's respectability in the marketplace. Or with Hassy, one could point to the high res medium format backs (that until recently were the highest res. available)--Oh, kind of like Pentax having the highest res. APS-C sensor as recently as a year ago?

Pentax is it's own kind of critter with it's own kind of appeal. Nope, not the appeal that other companies tell us is important, but the appeal that wins out most perhaps with those shooting for artistic reasons. Let the business model shooters shoot some other brand.

Forecast calls for a foot of snow tomorrow, so Christmas day in the mountains of Montana will be great and the images our family shoots will be lots of fun and shot with several Pentax bodies--both film and digital. I promise to take more sledding photos than boring--"here's our tree" photos (though we hiked into the hill beside our house to find our tree--$5 U.S. Forest Service Christmas Tree Permit--no kidding). And I promise not to waste energy taking horrible pet photos--though my 13 year old will "flash shoot" the dog 'til it gets sunburned. Enjoy the holiday season!

Ron wins this thread. time to close it.

[awo425]

Sorry, Cameron, but every time Pentax is dying things are different. Really different
Sell everything to us, cheaply, go to Canon and be happy. I'm tired of this, I don't need another "the sky is falling! I'm telling you, the sky is really falling!".
Besides, I think 2009 will be an interesting year for pentaxians. No, not a system 100% equivalent to Canon as you'd like (the only way to survival, yeah, right!), but a clear step-up from the current situation.

Samsungian, the APS-C market is not the niche, full frame is.

I just came from B&H 5 mins ago , went there to look at the K2000, just out curiosity.
Nice little camera it is, I might buy it one day to replace my istD. I couldn't figure out how to keep display off when I am taking pictures, but I didn't have manual , so whatever, I am sure it is possible.

I also went to look at new 5D2. Not going to expressed my opinion here, there's no need, but what I noticed, nobody and I am going to repeat this NOBODY was buying Pentax there, although staff at the Pentax display is really knowledgeable and helpful.

I was there for good 40 mins, waiting for my turn, and playing with 5D2 and D700.
BTW 5D2 was sold out, come back later they told me, in a week or 2.

Here's your niche market. What's becoming niche is Pentax with it's 20 different pancakes and it's followers deciding which one of there 20 lenses between 31 and 43 mm they are going to use today.

[Ron Boggs]

If 2 out of 100 buyers went to the Pentax display, they are still ok. If you saw zero out of 25 buyers go the other way, not an issue, just business as usual. How long was the line at the Leica display? How many buyers were buying high end vs the number buying low end? Point being, most consumers were just buying the cheap nikon kit deal for christmas. How would an improved Pentax body compete with that anyway? P.S. Pentax star* zooms are killer and have always been killer --F* and FA* too.

And Seamuis, it's funny you put a competitive twist on it. Not trying to win anything, just calm some jangled worries and perhaps convince the "non-believers" to move on if that's what they need to do to enjoy their lives a bit more. It's a freakin' hobby for Christmas sake...oh, I've been warned never to post while sober and I went and violated that again. Maybe I'll be back when full of Christmas cheer again

Just for fun, I always notice my comments bug city people, I guess all rural hayseeds like me are supposed to be of Palinesque mentality. I mean really, how could anybody living in the mountains have any perspective on anything in this world. We should all just go back to our trap lines, club a few more baby seals and enjoy the holidays drinking warm blood pudding through silly straws...a few drinks and maybe I can see Russia from here? Nope, this isn't the end of the earth, but you can see it from here...

[Ratmagiclady]

I just came from B&H 5 mins ago , went there to look at the K2000, just out curiosity.
Nice little camera it is, I might buy it one day to replace my istD. I couldn't figure out how to keep display off when I am taking pictures, but I didn't have manual , so whatever, I am sure it is possible.

I also went to look at new 5D2. Not going to expressed my opinion here, there's no need, but what I noticed, nobody and I am going to repeat this NOBODY was buying Pentax there, although staff at the Pentax display is really knowledgeable and helpful.

I was there for good 40 mins, waiting for my turn, and playing with 5D2 and D700.
BTW 5D2 was sold out, come back later they told me, in a week or 2.

Here's your niche market. What's becoming niche is Pentax with it's 20 different pancakes and it's followers deciding which one of there 20 lenses between 31 and 43 mm they are going to use today.

All's I can say is, if what it takes to harsh on Pentax is comparing a K1000 to a D700 or a 5d mk II, they must be doing something right.


If what it takes is trying to make fun of prime lens shooters, also, they must be doing something right.

Frankly, if they're putting products out for *me* instead of trying to dissuade me from being a 'niche' market, well, hey.

*My* niche. I love Canon dear, respect a lot of what Nikon does, but no one's gonna dislodge me from my 'niche' by treating me like it's a stupid place to be and force me out of it.

I mean, to add a little more, hey. The reason Canon kept me in the first place was cause, yes, they made the L-series lenses, but they also didn't say, 'If you're a *real* pro, you'll shell out what you don't have and do it *our* way.' They'd make a non-L lens that'd do the job that you could *get.* Need 'bokeh' and soft focus? Pick up an FL 50 and throw a stocking over it. You could do the job with that stuff, even if Nikonians sneered. They'd put a good thing in your *hands.* I think after some years of being the top dog, they forgot that. If Canon was asking me what to do, yeah, I'd hold out my ol 85 1.8 SSC, and say, 'Gimme something to put behind *this.*

They aren't doing that. And I don't need a 100-500 2.8-5.6 zoom to do what I do, either. Give me a fast short tele and something a little wideish, and we're pretty close to my happy place.

[séamuis]

Point being, most consumers were just buying the cheap nikon kit deal for christmas.

bingo. its a shame more people do not do more research before buying, but you can be assured that a lot of those people who are buying canon and nikon right now are taking advantage of store deals on the only two brands they have likely heard of.

[m8o]

I just came from B&H 5 mins ago , went there to look at the K2000, just out curiosity.
Nice little camera it is, I might buy it one day to replace my istD. I couldn't figure out how to keep display off when I am taking pictures, but I didn't have manual , so whatever, I am sure it is possible....

Good to see they had one out. I went to Adorama a couple of weeks ago and asked for it. The sales person pointed me to their kiosk saying "it should be over there", but they only had a K20D. Not even a 200.

[nostatic]

If more of you guys were out shooting your Pentax gear instead of whining here and taking pictures of focus charts in your living room then maybe people might actually notice. I've had a number of people (both artists and normal people ) come up and ask me about my Pentax. I get the same thing when I'm using my Leica DLux4 but less so as it is more unobtrusive.

People who actually notice things will usually ask my "why Pentax" or will comment on the small, beautiful prime lenses. Same place, same time with a Canikon and you'll get no response. People with an aesthetic will notice the gear and respond.

If you believe in the gear, then be a bit of an evangelist. Apple got where it is based on "insanely good products" that first and foremost had an aesthetic, and were used by people who appreciated it. You could always buy a "faster", "better" PC. But for some there is more to it than that. I occasionally have a crisis of faith, but every time I pull out my K20d and put on a beautiful ltd prime, I want to shoot pictures. And if I'm paying attention, I'll shoot good ones. Every so often I go back and read the manual and pick up another trick or an reminded of something that I forgot. These cameras have plenty of features - more than you can probably keep track of.

I don't need features. I need a tool that gets out of the way and that I appreciate using. Slap a Nikon D700 with a big heavy zoom on it and I am not the same shooter as I am with a K20d and a 77ltd. I just is a different ballgame.

I may get a "technically" better shot with the Nikon. It may have autofocused faster. But odds are I will get an artistically better shot with the Pentax because it is more in line with how I work and how I see. And actually these days I'm appreciating manual focus more and more, and am looking forward to picking up a Zeiss MF to shoot. Photography is many things. For some it is pushing a button and letting the camera make decisions. For others they want to be more involved. Frankly, Pentax asks that you be a little more involved in the process. You don't have "world class" AF or metering. But if you pay attention, you will be rewarded. It is your choice. Neither is a better or worse approach than the other. But get informed, figure out how you want to shoot, and pick the most appropriate tool. And realize that your needs might change as your eye changes.

[vitalsax]

Ben cannot say anything but i can we gonna have a k20d updated with more mp and a better AF and a medium format camera cheaper than the A900



Merry christmas to everyone

[Samsungian]

645D will compete with "31mp hassy price point". Take 15% off the hassy and you're looking at Buying FIVE Sony A900 for launch price of 645D. Your kidding right? $3,000 for 31mp 645D this year?

Best AF would be sweet. And PMA is only 10 weeks away. I like my K20D but most of my glass is manual focus and 14.6 mp seems big enough to me but I look foward to you "credible rumour" fleshing out as fact since Ben cannot say a word.

Ben cannot say anything but i can we gonna have a k20d updated with more mp and a best AF and a medium format camera cheaper than the A900



Merry christmas to everyone

[nostatic]

I believe his tongue was firmly in cheek when posting that "rumor."

I however have the real inside story. A new Pentax body, but not FF or APS, but rather a new BBW format. The only problem is that it won't work on typical fashion shoots...need a model with a bit more...umm....err...heft. That's why Ben is upset.

[247nino]

Oh, that's *sweet.* What a great idea. I'm stealing it. (that idea, not the device )

Can you turn that sort of thing down by much? I don't see much detail there.

247nino:

Is there any way to turn that Sima light off during a shot? Seems like it'd affect exposure?

Unfortunately it can't be turned down, so far I've shot nightlife using this and on a couple of photo shoots, I am usually strobing/ using a flash so it usually gets overpowered and doesnt give any color cast. These are perfect for me and I get enough light even if my subjects are up to 15 feet away, the help the K10/20 focus quite fast.

I'm curious as to why you say only the D3 and lump the the D700 in with the D300? The D700's image quality is identical to the D3's, so if the D3 is better then the D700 must be as well. I'd hesitate to make a bigger deal out of the 5D mk ii's sensor "problems" than really exist as well... the black dots do little to detract from otherwise great image quality in most situations. I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to say that the Nikon, Canon, and Sony full frame cameras have the K20D beat for image quality (and many other aspects of performance), and they should, given how much they cost. The amazing thing about the K20D is how incredibly close you can get to that IQ with perfectly adequate body performance for under $1000.

I mean, yeah, the K20D is great. I'm buying one. But let's be rational.

Well I am not the one with the D700 or the 5Dmk2 but if I pay around $2700, my image quality better be lightyears away from a $750 Pentax at 1.5x crop...
thats my point really, that IQ from the D700 is comparable to an almost 1 year old non full frame. And Sony... lets not talk about that A900 flop... have you even played with that camera for yourself; fail.

I think the only part where you and I disagree is that the only IQ smoking the K20D's right now is the D3. Pentax is consistent and I think the other 2 brands are as well. Nikon has great IQ and tonality. Canon can be sharp but has software and AF problems(ask 40D, 1Dmk3 users). And Pentax...

Anybody looking to keep up with the Jones or to be a "me too" really bought the wrong brand when they got into Pentax. Anybody looking for an artistic tool for rendering wonderful images may end up happy with Pentax. Took me 5 years to give up on hopes of competiting in the specs wars, but by then I was busy shooting saleable images and not judging the equipment by anything other than the results.
!

AWESOME, well put; right on~!

[Douglas_of_Sweden]

I have held off on EVERY camera for a long time, including the *ist D (they can't even coime up with a decent NAME these days), thinking they must be going to get serious soon, surely to gawd. Five years later, here we are, twiddling our thumbs. I haven't even bought a K20D yet, thinking 'it's just around the corner...'. I can't make up my mind whether to buy one of those or just bail out and sell everything, like I've been thinking for the last 10 ******* YEARS. The ONLY thing keeping me here is my magnificent collection of glass.

Don't usually bother to get involved in these sort of awful arguments, but can't help wondering: How can you bash Pentax recent cameras like this when you have not even owned the triple awarded K10D or the even better K20D at its current extremely good price? Afraid of discovering that you are wrong?

If you have waited that long, why don't allow yourself to own the K20D for a couple of months before jumping to another brand? It wont cost you much compared to that jump to pro-canikon.

I would not mind faster AF or a 24x36 sensor either, but your way of arguing has a style that reminds me of my kids when they don't get things their way and would need to sleep or eat. As for what Pentax release in the near future: keep in mind that we have sort of a global depression and that releasing new gear now in the more expensive range may be very unwise. So some more patience may be needed even if they happen to have something on its way. Meanwhile, play around with a K20D! It is worth it.

[Douglas_of_Sweden]

Oh, that's *sweet.* What a great idea. I'm stealing it. (that idea, not the device )

Can you turn that sort of thing down by much? I don't see much detail there.

Yes, indeed interesting.
247nino, could you please post some photos you have taken in this way?