[regken]

u
They seem to just be buying time, and I never ASS-U-ME anything a business is going to do, even after they say what it is. Promised upgrades have a tendency to vaporize in the electronics fields.. Guess I'll just have to wait "till next year" .
ONE bright spot is the "pro service" or whatever it is. Of course it's pretty meaningless (and not too costly) if you have no "pro" products.. (Present company excepted.... Ben)

Jeff,
I've been following your posts both here and on the other forum. Unlike Tweeble who seems to take great pleasure in needling you, I find many of your thoughts to be valid. We can all site more AMC/Harley Davidson type failed mergers than successful ones. There is also the old saying about, "the first generation creates it, the second generation spends it, and the third generation loses it.", which seems to be what happened at Pentax. That leaves us between a rock and a hard place. We either get an incompetent family or a corporation that must overcome a standard set by companies like AMC. Even though we hear positive rumors from people that "Are in the Know" the just released letter from Pentax certainly isn't making me rush off to Vegas to put a healthy bet on their future success.

In less than 90 days the fat lady is scheduled to sing. I hope it's a hit tune but at this point there is no hard evidence that it will be. I don't think there will be anything more than announcements about future products in January. Inventory will follow by mid summer. I just don't see how new management can do it any quicker.

Regards,

Ken

[*isteve]

Jeff,
I've been following your posts both here and on the other forum. Unlike Tweeble who seems to take great pleasure in needling you, I find many of your thoughts to be valid. We can all site more AMC/Harley Davidson type failed mergers than successful ones.

Thats generally because the majority of successful mergers never make the news. I assure you plenty work out extremely well. And please dont compare Hoya to AMG. Hoya is a mid-sized company with a good complimentary portfolio of products in a market they understand extremely well. They are fiscally astute and have been a very sound company for a very long time.

There is also the old saying about, "the first generation creates it, the second generation spends it, and the third generation loses it.", which seems to be what happened at Pentax. That leaves us between a rock and a hard place. We either get an incompetent family or a corporation that must overcome a standard set by companies like AMC. Even though we hear positive rumors from people that "Are in the Know" the just released letter from Pentax certainly isn't making me rush off to Vegas to put a healthy bet on their future success.

Of course not, but nor should it be any cause for concern. Pentax's prospects will depend on their performance over the next 3-5 years and the performance of the market as a whole.

In less than 90 days the fat lady is scheduled to sing. I hope it's a hit tune but at this point there is no hard evidence that it will be. I don't think there will be anything more than announcements about future products in January. Inventory will follow by mid summer. I just don't see how new management can do it any quicker.

The only camera company that I predict a successful 2008 for at the moment is Nikon. Canon have lost the plot with the 1D problems and the 40D is underwhelming if competent. Sony failed to make a splash with the A100 and interest in the A700 is not drawing anyone away from Nikon/Canon. Olypus are still rushing up a blind alley at breakneck speed but now their medical division has to compete with a larger and evigorated Hoya, so expect them to take a hit.

By comparison, Pentax are looking pretty secure for the time being and have the opportunity to lower their costs considerably compared to all competitors - all they need to do is deliver products and maintain a moderate profit. Its not rocket science.

For me the cup is at least 3/4 full but everyone is complaining because its not brimming over.

And if it all goes belly up, so what? Compared to divorce, redundancy and the housing market its a minor annoyance. Lots of other kit to choose from.

[*isteve]

@Benjikan:

Yes I thought that Pro body but then there is not even a mention of how many fps the one can do so I neglected the whole thing

@Jeffkrol:

Yeah that's confirm more or less my informations but.. there is no question (in my infos of course) of boldly quitting P&S cams. Simply they will scrap Optio E-serie for example and keep the ones which have particuliar features (like Optio W-serie I suppose). They might also go more in the Optio 750Z-like P&S or Ricoh G-serie. Maybe Minolta DimageA-serie or Canon G-serie.

I would probably buy a Pentax Ricoh G-like if they come with one usable with their usual flashes and allow for RAW mode. Take a GR with a good sensor, K10D engine and 360FGZ flash

I just bought a Ricoh GX100 and I love it. Even at its eye-watering price they are flying off shelves. Sexy sells! I use it more than my K10D right now and I dont feel short changed at all. There IS a market for quality niche cameras that appeal to real photographers not gadget freaks (who make up the vast majority of the camera buying public).

[vinzer]

Hoya would have to maintain some presence in the digicam segment of the market, just so the Pentax name would remain a household name for regular consumers. Hobbyists like us need not be informed of the Pentax name, but others do.

A lot of those buying the 400D are people who have outgrown their Powershot A-series cams or their G-series cams. Having a digicam line helps keep people in the fold. And even non-users of a particular brand feels compelled to at least take a look at a big company's offerings in their DSLR line just because that company, as a whole, are big names in both the digicam and DSLR world.

In that sense, Canon can continue to release underwhelming cameras and still maintain their hold on the market. The 400D remains one of the top-selling cameras as of now because of brand familiarity from top to bottom (1D-series down to the Powershots).

Pentax should also aim to at least have some presence in the digicam market, if only to keep the brand recognition growing. Perhaps a weatherproof model, a superzoom model, and a bridge camera ought to do it.

I second the idea of rebadging Samsung models also. Or find a way to tie the Pentax name to Samsung cameras. Samsung's been inching their way up in the digicam sector. Wouldn't hurt to latch on to the name, since Samsung's also been hitching on the success of the Pentax DSLRs.

[regken]

The only camera company that I predict a successful 2008 for at the moment is Nikon. Canon have lost the plot with the 1D problems and the 40D is underwhelming if competent. Sony failed to make a splash with the A100 and interest in the A700 is not drawing anyone away from Nikon/Canon. Olypus are still rushing up a blind alley at breakneck speed but now their medical division has to compete with a larger and evigorated Hoya, so expect them to take a hit.

Agreed except for the Oly blind alley comment. They might be able to carve out a reasonable niche market with the E-510 type camera.

By comparison, Pentax are looking pretty secure for the time being and have the opportunity to lower their costs considerably compared to all competitors - all they need to do is deliver products and maintain a moderate profit. Its not rocket science.

Lowering costs is the biggest advantage Pentax has for the near future. The change from being a company that had suppliers wondering if they were going to be paid to one that is backed by Hoya should drop cost of purchased parts by a considerable amount.

For me the cup is at least 3/4 full but everyone is complaining because its not brimming over.

I don't think we are being pessimistic, Guarded would be more correct.

And if it all goes belly up, so what? Compared to divorce, redundancy and the housing market its a minor annoyance. Lots of other kit to choose from.

True, and you have the added advantage you don't have to put up with Bush for another year.
regards,
Ken

[jeffkrol]

Well, Hoya should not stand behind the cameras - better to leave that to Ben and other photographers. *grin*

But seriously, Hoya is backing up the cameras. Why would they going through all the trouble to make a separate division for cameras, lenses and binoculars if they didn't believed in the business? Yes, Hoya Imaging Systems will begin it's operation in 1st of April 2008 (it is silly that the financial year starts at 1st April, but it is like that in Japan). Pentax Imaging Business will not die, it will live on as a separate division inside Hoya. We have had letters from Mr Suzuki here, we have a letter from Ned Bunnel, President of Pentax US, and many other signs that Hoya is backing Pentax - and this is not enough for you. I understand that you want the products and to the talk, but the products will be announced in January.

Well roland a) It's easier to sell this way if all goes south...... b) there's actually no place to put it. c)low profit in the short term (before divesting) is better than taking a loss right now. Believe me if the k10 was a financial dog we wouldn't be having this conversation. The division would be toast. As to binoculars ect, Hoya could just as easy get some 3rd party to manufacture and slap a Pentax label on, big pretty building or not. Look I don't mean to be so negative, it's just none of this positiveism is adding up to a long term commitment to ME. I have no problem, and will have no problem in bowing down and pleading for mercy if things work out as you et. al. predict. Maybe I should just stop saying anything. If it's any consolation I promise not to start a "Hoytax" blog

[jeffkrol]

I just bought a Ricoh GX100 and I love it. Even at its eye-watering price they are flying off shelves. Sexy sells! I use it more than my K10D right now and I dont feel short changed at all. There IS a market for quality niche cameras that appeal to real photographers not gadget freaks (who make up the vast majority of the camera buying public).

Removeable viewfinder.. cool. Reminds me of one of my "wish lists" for Pentax a few years ago...
Wireless LCD that clips to your glasses and flips down.... how cool would that be . Add eye control focus/tracking and I needn't be slithering on my belly for a mushroom shot..

[jeffkrol]

Jeff,
I've been following your posts both here and on the other forum. Unlike Tweeble who seems to take great pleasure in needling you, I find many of your thoughts to be valid. We can all site more AMC/Harley Davidson type failed mergers than successful ones. There is also the old saying about, "the first generation creates it, the second generation spends it, and the third generation loses it.", which seems to be what happened at Pentax. That leaves us between a rock and a hard place. We either get an incompetent family or a corporation that must overcome a standard set by companies like AMC. Even though we hear positive rumors from people that "Are in the Know" the just released letter from Pentax certainly isn't making me rush off to Vegas to put a healthy bet on their future success.

In less than 90 days the fat lady is scheduled to sing. I hope it's a hit tune but at this point there is no hard evidence that it will be. I don't think there will be anything more than announcements about future products in January. Inventory will follow by mid summer. I just don't see how new management can do it any quicker.

Regards,

Ken

Tweedle is in love with HOYA and he is generally "pure business". Can't comprehend the fact that there is anything more to business than profit. apparently if Pentax went and became the number 1 manufacturer of pop guns, it would mean Hoya was successful in "saving" Pentax. In other words all that counts is the bottom line. I've been trying to see what he says about the Pentax camera museum. It doesn't even charge admission..heavens..
One of the only things that keep me even half interested is the "harley" saga . Maybe Pentax can be reborn the same way.. silly but true.
Oh and thanks for the support. Not sure too many feel the same way to my posts

[RMabo]

Jeff,
We can all site more AMC/Harley Davidson type failed mergers than successful ones.

One very important point about the Hoya-Pentax merger, is that it is only the non-imaging business divisions that are actually merged with Hoya. The Pentax Imaging Business is transferred over to Hoya "as it is", simply because Hoya does not have a corresponding division to merge the Pentax Imaging Business division with. From a practical standpoint, the Pentax Imaging Business simply gets a new name.

[RMabo]

Thats generally because the majority of successful mergers never make the news. I assure you plenty work out extremely well.

Citroën merged with Peugeot and formed the PSA Group. Despite of both being car makers with overlapping product portfolios, the PSA Group has been highly successful on the market.
Just to give an example of a successful merger...

[RMabo]

it's just none of this positiveism is adding up to a long term commitment to ME.

I have been a Pentax SLR users since 1988, and since then - Pentax has been declared as "dying" at least every year. In the early 90's, Pentax was said to prepare for killing the SLR line and going strictly with the highly successful Espio range. The success of the MZ-serie changed that, if the MZ-serie had been a flop - Pentax SLR would be no longer. Pentax has had many years with uncertain future, they have "lived on borrowed time" for the last 10 years, and they still haven't died. It is just like Apple who was declared as knocked out in the middle of the 90's, but raised at the count of 10 and now is a highly successful company. As a Pentax user, I have learned to live with "Pentax will die!".

[lol101]

Citroën merged with Peugeot and formed the PSA Group. Despite of both being car makers with overlapping product portfolios, the PSA Group has been highly successful on the market.
Just to give an example of a successful merger...

Really excellent!

One of the most successful merging ever that has given rise to an incredibly beautiful line up of inventive cars that sell like hotcakes...

As a matter of fact, just wait for the next BIG NEWS from PSA: just wait until next year, you won't regret it!!!



... OK, I work for them....

[regken]

I have been a Pentax SLR users since 1988, and since then - Pentax has been declared as "dying" at least every year. In the early 90's, Pentax was said to prepare for killing the SLR line and going strictly with the highly successful Espio range. The success of the MZ-serie changed that, if the MZ-serie had been a flop - Pentax SLR would be no longer. Pentax has had many years with uncertain future, they have "lived on borrowed time" for the last 10 years, and they still haven't died. It is just like Apple who was declared as knocked out in the middle of the 90's, but raised at the count of 10 and now is a highly successful company. As a Pentax user, I have learned to live with "Pentax will die!".

Many, if not all people on this forum are contrarians. We all like to be out of step to one degree or another. Our nature is to know we are right and want to prove it to the rest of the world so we keep looking for acceptance. We all love to P & M about how our choice is misunderstood and not appreciated. Walking around with our neck strap with the red blazing Pentax name is our badge of identity.

Whoa be the day if Pentax turns out to lead the industry and not on the brink of disaster. We would all probably jump ship! How else can you explain a 7 page 101 reply thread?

Regards,

Ken

[RMabo]

One of the most successful merging ever that has given rise to an incredibly beautiful line up of inventive cars that sell like hotcakes...

Yes, I have owned two Citroëns (AX GT and Xsara Estate) and one Peugeot (309 XS), but now I'm on my 2nd Renault! I am not happy with the new direction that Citroën is taking, the C5 II isn't going to have pneumatic suspension as standard, it will be an extra! The sky is falling! I was already dissapointed that my Xsara did not have pneumatic suspension and now this...
So I have a Renault because they still feels soft!

Of course I expect the Hoya-Pentax to look into what really is Pentax brand values and strengthen those. I don't mind if Pentax goes upmarket, as long as Pentax are still a cheaper alternative to Leica.

[lol101]

Yes, I have owned two Citroëns (AX GT and Xsara Estate) and one Peugeot (309 XS), but now I'm on my 2nd Renault! I am not happy with the new direction that Citroën is taking, the C5 II isn't going to have pneumatic suspension as standard, it will be an extra! The sky is falling! I was already dissapointed that my Xsara did not have pneumatic suspension and now this...
So I have a Renault because they still feels soft!

Of course I expect the Hoya-Pentax to look into what really is Pentax brand values and strengthen those. I don't mind if Pentax goes upmarket, as long as Pentax are still a cheaper alternative to Leica.

You mean hydro-pneumatic suspensions of course ?

OK, I shall forgive your errors (but that's asking a lot! Renault? Oh come on!!) because you've shown to be a true connaisseur :ugh: