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05-24-2013, 04:23 AM   #1636
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Thanks for the PDF. It tells nothing about the K-30 but seems to demand further clarification.


Moreover, Ricoh totally lost its market in the rest of Asia in this segment (-68%, OTHER category, Overseas/Other) while doing well at home (+2%). Clearly not Pentax.
.
I think that Pentax lost the most perspective market as China...I work with Chinese partners and live in China for the last 5 years from time to time.
I saw more Pentax in streets and photo stores on 2008, but now...Hard to see. Nikon and Canon. I see more Leica than Pentax now.

05-24-2013, 04:24 AM - 1 Like   #1637
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
English is not my native language, I could be wrong in using any words in wrong way...
The sales of camera became higher, but the loss is higher too...It means there is no real profit.
English or not.

Saying that K-30 is sold at a loss has a specific meaning: namely that it takes more money to make a unit than you can recover from selling it. I.e., that you would actually save money (in the short term) by stopping to produce and sell it. E.g., that was the case for early units of Sony's PS3.

I think you have no data to claim that K-30 is sold at a loss.

Personally, I think the opposite is true.

Wrt English. If what you say isn't what you mean, then be more careful in defending your arguments and ask more questions if you are understood correctly. Your current attitude doesn't allow you to hide behind your language skills.
05-24-2013, 04:32 AM   #1638
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
English or not.

Saying that K-30 is sold at a loss has a specific meaning: namely that it takes more money to make a unit than you can recover from selling it. I.e., that you would actually save money (in the short term) by stopping to produce and sell it. E.g., that was the case for early units of Sony's PS3.

I think you have no data to claim that K-30 is sold at a loss.

Personally, I think the opposite is true.
You are too serious...
05-24-2013, 04:39 AM   #1639
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QuoteOriginally posted by bvg Quote
Google translation from Chinese (I cannot find anything about professional APS-C):

(...)
If you prefer, the link below will lead you to a man-made translation into French:

Pentax au salon P&E 2013 (Chine) : 24x36, compact APS-C, etc.

See the second "R:" ("R" = "réponse" = answer in French). They say Pentax are planning a professional compact camera with an APS-C sensor. This is said in conjunction with the interviewer talking about Pentax MX-1 and Ricoh GR. One can assume this so-called professional compact camera (i.e. high-end compact camera) will have a zoom lens (sort of beefed-up MX-1 with APS-C sensor).

05-24-2013, 04:52 AM   #1640
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Can somebody please verify?

The document details that domestic sales is 84% of total sales in the OTHER category which includes digital cameras. However, we all know that domestic sales of Pentax cameras is only about 30%. So, that figure clearly is dominated by non-Pentax products.
As I said in my previous post, acquiring Pentax could not generate an increase in sales, in the OTHER category, higher than 4.9%. IMO this clearly indicates that Pentax is just a small part of the OTHER.
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
It seems to me again....
Do you really work for Pentax or you are simply fan of brand? Honest answer - can you?

English is not my native language, I could be wrong in using any words in wrong way...
The sales of camera became higher, but the loss is higher too...It means there is no real profit. We see it from the figures
ogl, our Pentax distributor simply cannot afford, nor do they need my services. I'm working as a senior software developer, with no relation to photography.
I would prefer if you would discuss my arguments, and not my person. And I'd say I have valid arguments, showing that Pentax is just a small part of OTHER.
05-24-2013, 05:29 AM   #1641
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Thanks for the PDF. It tells nothing about the K-30 but seems to demand further clarification.

Can somebody please verify?

The document details that domestic sales is 84% of total sales in the OTHER category which includes digital cameras. However, we all know that domestic sales of Pentax cameras is only about 30%. So, that figure clearly is dominated by non-Pentax products.

Moreover, Ricoh totally lost its market in the rest of Asia in this segment (-68%, OTHER category, Overseas/Other) while doing well at home (+2%). Clearly not Pentax.


On the other hand, the total amount of sales (370 M$ Q1, translating into 1.5 B$ p.a.) fits well with the assumption it is the camera business only (3% of the 40 million unit dSLR market at $500 each is 600 M$ or about 40% that figure; add P&S and Ricoh and the number looks right).


But that would mean that Pentax has already lost most of its market overseas and has now additionally lost its market in the rest of Asia.


This is all too incoherent to draw a real conclusion from.

My conclusion:

Since the aquisition of Pentax by Ricoh, we don't have any way anymore to get hold of Pentax business data by looking into investment documentation.
They say:
  • Net sales in the Other segment (digital cameras) reached JPY 146.0 billion (USD 1.5 billion) in FY 2013 (April 1st, 2012 - March 30th, 2013), up from JPY134.3bn in FY2012.
  • Net operating loss in the Other segment worsened from JPY 4.7bn to JPY 5.2bn due to "additional expenses incurred relating to new business" (which could be development costs of new PRIC products, additional marketing costs of PRIC products and Pentax brand and/or something else)
  • Net sales in the Other segment can be split between domestic sales (JPY 130bn) and sales overseas (JPY 15.9bn, of which JPY 4.3bn to the Americas and JPY 7.1 to Europe, Middle East and Africa)

The latter is indeed intriguing but I am afraid I cannot agree with your calculation

QuoteQuote:
On the other hand, the total amount of sales (370 M$ Q1, translating into 1.5 B$ p.a.) fits well with the assumption it is the camera business only (3% of the 40 million unit dSLR market at $500 each is 600 M$ or about 40% that figure; add P&S and Ricoh and the number looks right).
CIPA figures for April 1st, 2012 - March 30th, 2013 are:
  • 15,414,830 DSLRs shipped generating sales for OEMs of JPY 603bn (==> average unit price is JPY 40,000 i.e. USD 400)
  • 22,322,208 "Lenses for smaller than 35mm format Cameras" shipped generating sales for OEMs of JPY 272bn.

Applying a 4.5% ratio to the former and a 3% ratio to the latter (to take out Sigma and Tamron lenses in K mount), I find potential sales of Pentax DSLRs and lenses of JPY 37bn (circa USD 400m) i.e. 25 per cent. of net sales in the Other segment.

75 per cent. of those sales should therefore come from Pentax compact cameras and Ricoh cameras, the international split of which is unknown to me even though I am tempted to consider the sales of Ricoh cameras as being massively Japanese.
05-24-2013, 05:47 AM   #1642
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
If you prefer, the link below will lead you to a man-made translation into French:

Pentax au salon P&E 2013 (Chine) : 24x36, compact APS-C, etc.

See the second "R:" ("R" = "réponse" = answer in French). They say Pentax are planning a professional compact camera with an APS-C sensor. This is said in conjunction with the interviewer talking about Pentax MX-1 and Ricoh GR. One can assume this so-called professional compact camera (i.e. high-end compact camera) will have a zoom lens (sort of beefed-up MX-1 with APS-C sensor).
I think they could very well have been talking about the Ricoh GR.

There is a lot of space in the market for a zoom version of the GR, but it will be physically sized more like a bridge camera. At that point market options may be to drop down to the CX (1") sensor size...

...or do both. None of which will be a K-3.
05-24-2013, 06:22 AM   #1643
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
From one of those charts it would appear that the split between camera/lens sales in Japan and overseas is around 90/10 (32853 vs 3502 million yen, I think), with domestic sales holding their own but overseas sales heavily down compared to the previous year, by some 50 per cent exchange-rate adjusted. Is this correct? if so, it explains rather a lot to me, in that we are looking at an overwhelmingly Japan-focused company for whom the domestic market represents 9 out of every ten bucks in revenue, and the trend is increasing. And Pentax Ricoh in North America would seem to garner about 0.2 per cent of the whole Ricoh group's revenues.

Is this true? It's scary as heck in terms of seeing Pentax as an international brand. How does this compare with the other camera outfits? I've looked at a Nikon report which indicates almost the opposite state of affairs: 2013 net sales = 1,010,493, of which 144,417 in Japan and 866,075 overseas of which North America alone accounted for 271,459 - in millions of yen. However, the Nikon figures lump all their sales together and don't break out the camera segment. Even so, the Nikon split is about 15 per cent Japan and 85 per cent overseas, nearly the opposite of Ricoh's figure.

But maybe I have this completely wrong.
No. You have it pretty much right. The dominance of Canon and Nikon has come mostly from their penetration of non-Japanese markets. Fuji and Olympus also. Pentax has sorely lagged and Ricoh has been a niche of a niche of a niche.

05-24-2013, 06:28 AM   #1644
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This is definitely wrong:
QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
the Other segment (digital cameras)
05-24-2013, 06:37 AM   #1645
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
From one of those charts it would appear that the split between camera/lens sales in Japan and overseas is around 90/10 (32853 vs 3502 million yen, I think), with domestic sales holding their own but overseas sales heavily down compared to the previous year, by some 50 per cent exchange-rate adjusted. Is this correct? if so, it explains rather a lot to me, in that we are looking at an overwhelmingly Japan-focused company for whom the domestic market represents 9 out of every ten bucks in revenue, and the trend is increasing. And Pentax Ricoh in North America would seem to garner about 0.2 per cent of the whole Ricoh group's revenues.

Is this true? It's scary as heck in terms of seeing Pentax as an international brand. How does this compare with the other camera outfits? I've looked at a Nikon report which indicates almost the opposite state of affairs: 2013 net sales = 1,010,493, of which 144,417 in Japan and 866,075 overseas of which North America alone accounted for 271,459 - in millions of yen. However, the Nikon figures lump all their sales together and don't break out the camera segment. Even so, the Nikon split is about 15 per cent Japan and 85 per cent overseas, nearly the opposite of Ricoh's figure.

But maybe I have this completely wrong.
Net sales in the Other segment (i.e. digital cameras or Pentax Ricoh Imaging) went up from JPY134.3bn in FY2012 to JPY 146.0 bn (USD 1.5bn) in FY 2013 (+8.7%), of which:
  • Domestic sales went up from JPY 121.8bn to JPY 130.1bn (+6.8%)
  • Total overseas sales went up from JPY 12.5bn to JPY 15.9bn (+27.3%)
  • Sales to the Americas went up from JPY 2.4bn to JPY 4.3bn (+77.2%)
  • Sales to Europe, Middle East and Africa went up from JPY 5.6bn to JPY 7.1bn (+26.3%)
  • Sales to other countries went slightly up from JPY 4.5bn to JPY 4.6bn (+1.6%)

These figures come from page 41 of the following document:

http://www.ricoh.com/IR/financial_data/financial_result/data/25/flash.pdf

Forecasts for FY2014 (current year; see page 42 of the document linked above) are net sales in the Other segment of JPY 148.8bn (+1.9%), of which:
  • Domestic: JPY 131.9bn (+1.4%)
  • Overseas: JPY 16.9bn (+6.2%)
  • Americas: JPY 4.7bn (+4.2%)
  • EMEA: JPY 7.4bn (+5.3%)
  • Other countries: JPY 4.8bn (+4.8%)
05-24-2013, 06:41 AM   #1646
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Mistral, could you estimate the size of Pentax or Pentax Ricoh Imaging in the OTHER division? Thank you.
05-24-2013, 06:45 AM   #1647
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
This is definitely wrong:
This is definitely what Ricoh are stating:
Attached Images
 
05-24-2013, 06:50 AM   #1648
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...but may be you missed this too:

"Product Category and product lines included in Product Category was changed in this fiscal year.

Product Category in Imaging & Solutions was reclassified as Office Imaging, Production Printing and Network System Solutions in this fiscal year (Imaging Solutions and Network System Solutions as previous category).
Certain products were reclassified into Network System Solutions and Industrial Products from Other in this fiscal year.

The above reclassification was made to the prior year's figures.
"

You might envisage being less definitive and abrupt in your statements.

Last edited by Mistral75; 05-24-2013 at 06:59 AM.
05-24-2013, 06:56 AM   #1649
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Net sales in the Other segment (i.e. digital cameras or Pentax Ricoh Imaging) went up from JPY134.3bn in FY2012 to JPY 146.0 bn (USD 1.5bn) in FY 2013 (+8.7%), of which:
  • Domestic sales went up from JPY 121.8bn to JPY 130.1bn (+6.8%)
  • Total overseas sales went up from JPY 12.5bn to JPY 15.9bn (+27.3%)
  • Sales to the Americas went up from JPY 2.4bn to JPY 4.3bn (+77.2%)
  • Sales to Europe, Middle East and Africa went up from JPY 5.6bn to JPY 7.1bn (+26.3%)
  • Sales to other countries went slightly up from JPY 4.5bn to JPY 4.6bn (+1.6%)

These figures come from page 41 of the following document:

http://www.ricoh.com/IR/financial_data/financial_result/data/25/flash.pdf

Forecasts for FY2014 (current year; see page 42 of the document linked above) are net sales in the Other segment of JPY 148.8bn (+1.9%), of which:
  • Domestic: JPY 131.9bn (+1.4%)
  • Overseas: JPY 16.9bn (+6.2%)
  • Americas: JPY 4.7bn (+4.2%)
  • EMEA: JPY 7.4bn (+5.3%)
  • Other countries: JPY 4.8bn (+4.8%)
Many thanks for this.

If I have it right about 52 per cent of Nikon's revenue comes from North America and Europe (about half each) whereas from your figures, for Pentax Ricoh it's about 2.9 percent from North America and 4.8 per cent from EMEA, i.e. well under 10 per cent in total.

I suppose one can look at this in two ways. Good news is that the potential for growth in overseas markets is very substantial since PRIC is starting from such a low base. Bad news is that without a lot of investment and expansion of resources, not that much is going to happen outside Japan: the infrastructure isn't there and the competition is very strong.

Anyway, perhaps this instantly strikes down most of the rumor-ing in here. Forget the gear, look instead at the infrastructure - the regional offices, staffing, distribution deals, etc. Without some pretty clear changes in this regard, slow incremental growth seems the most plausible option. The claims folks may make (including Pentax marketing folk) need to be looked at with this in mind, because Pentax simply won't be making enough of a market for their goods outside of Japan to justify "going large" with major new camera projects. An example: would Nikon have really launched the D800 plus lenses or the 1 series plus lenses on the basis that 90 per cent of production would have to be sold in Japan because they lacked the sales resources to sell more than 10 per cent of the production overseas.

Last edited by mecrox; 05-24-2013 at 09:52 AM.
05-24-2013, 06:57 AM   #1650
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Mistral, could you estimate the size of Pentax or Pentax Ricoh Imaging in the OTHER division? Thank you.
As far as I understand, Pentax Ricoh Imaging IS the "Other" division.

As estimated in a former message from CIPA figures, sales of Pentax DSLRs and Pentax lenses (APS-C and Q lenses) could represent JPY 37bn in sales, leaving JPY 109bn for:

- Pentax 645 and 24x36 lenses
- Pentax Q/Q10 camera bodies
- Pentax compact cameras
- Ricoh GXR system
- Ricoh compact cameras
- Various accessories such as flashguns
- Repair services
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