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05-24-2013, 07:15 AM   #1651
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How many times should I say it, before people would stop ignoring this simple fact?
"Net sales in the Other segment increased by 4.9% as compared to the previous corresponding period [...] due primarily to acquisition of PENTAX Imaging Corporation" - http://www.ricoh.com/IR/financial_data/financial_result/data/24_3/flash.pdf
"Net sales in the Other segment increased by 8.7% compared to the previous corresponding period, to 146.0 billion due to contribution in sales from Pentax Ricoh Imaging Co., Ltd, which was acquired in the second half of FY11" - http://www.ricoh.com/IR/financial_data/financial_result/data/25/flash.pdf

What we have:
- the OTHER segment definitely existed before Pentax was acquired
- Pentax being acquired managed to contribute to a single digit sales increase
Your conclusion:
- Pentax IS the "Other" division.

05-24-2013, 07:29 AM   #1652
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I think they could very well have been talking about the Ricoh GR.

(...).
I am afraid I do not think so.

Ricoh GR was announced on April 17th. This interview was made on April 20th. I quote (translation from my Chinese --> French translation).

"Q: Pentax MX-1 has a 1/1.7 inch 12 Mpixels backlit CMOS sensor but Ricoh recently released a professional compact camera with an APS-C sensor [This one is the GR]. I wonder if Pentax will release a professional compact camera [with an APS-C sensor] the style of which would be similar to that of the MX-1?

A: The product portfolio is constantly adapting [to the market]. Pentax plans [to sell] a professional compact with an APS-C sensor."

The text above is the translation of the Chinese text that I saw on April 25th and translated into French. I went back to the report by PCPop today

http://www.pcpop.com/doc/0/900/900149.shtml

and I am discovering they have modified their text.

The current text says:

"Q': Pentax MX-1 has a 1/1.7 inch 12 Mpixels backlit CMOS sensor but Ricoh recently released a professional compact camera with an APS-C sensor. I wonder if Pentax will release in the future a compact camera [no "professional" any more, therefore no allusion at an APS-C sensor], the style of which would be similar to that of the MX-1?

A': We do not give answer concerning our projects. But we will certainely, based on MX-1 sales, market conditions and customer needs.
"

The question has been edited et the answer rephrased so that it gives the impression they are speaking about a possible successor to MX-1, which was definitely not the case in the first version.
05-24-2013, 07:53 AM   #1653
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
How many times should I say it, before people would stop ignoring this simple fact?
"Net sales in the Other segment increased by 4.9% as compared to the previous corresponding period [...] due primarily to acquisition of PENTAX Imaging Corporation" - http://www.ricoh.com/IR/financial_data/financial_result/data/24_3/flash.pdf
"Net sales in the Other segment increased by 8.7% compared to the previous corresponding period, to 146.0 billion due to contribution in sales from Pentax Ricoh Imaging Co., Ltd, which was acquired in the second half of FY11" - http://www.ricoh.com/IR/financial_data/financial_result/data/25/flash.pdf
(...)
Indeed Pentax was acquired on and consolidated from October 1st, 2010, i.e. at the beginning in the second half of FY2011. Part of FY2012 growth compared to FY2011 is linked to Pentax being consolidated during a full year instead of half a year.

But the growth in "Other" sales in FY2013 may come "primarly" from Pentax activities but not from Pentax acquisition per se since Pentax was part of the Ricoh group during the whole FY2012.

Put the blame either on a bad translation of a faulty copy and paste from FY2012 text. Indeed, the FY2013 text, except the figures, is the exact copy of that of FY2012, see http://www.ricoh.com/IR/financial_data/financial_result/data/24/flash.pdf page 6 and page 8.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
(...)
What we have:
- the OTHER segment definitely existed before Pentax was acquired
(...).
Indeed it did but "Other" activities non linked to digital cameras were reclassified this year among the other business division:

"Certain products were reclassified into Network System Solutions and Industrial Products from Other in this fiscal year."

See http://www.ricoh.com/IR/financial_data/financial_result/data/25/flash.pdf, for instance on page 20 (bottom).

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
(...)
Pentax being acquired managed to contribute to a single digit sales increase
(...)
See above.
05-24-2013, 08:04 AM   #1654
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
The sales of camera became higher, but the loss is higher too...It means there is no real profit. We see it from the figures
It simply means that operating costs increased over the previous year due to the buy out. Any money that Ricoh is investing into R&D for new products will be charged against operating costs for the current quarter/year, but income from that R&D may not be realized for 2-3 years.

I think we all know Hoya gutted the talent pool at Pentax, and Ricoh is going to have to spend a lot of money to revitalize product development. That is money that will not be recovered for a couple of years.

The information posted says nothing about the sales or profit of any one specific product.

05-24-2013, 08:13 AM   #1655
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Mistral:
Don't play with words, of course the sales increase was primarily due to Pentax' acquisition. "due to", AFAIK, doesn't mean "from"; and here it simply means Pentax added their own sales into the equation.

How much of the OTHER was reclassified? You don't know, right? They only say about "certain products", yet you claim that everything but Pentax was reclassified. And of course, they couldn't be bothered to rename the division "Pentax". Ridiculous.

After the reclassification Pentax still accounted for a single digit sales increase. They're applying this reclassification for both 2012 and 2013 data.

Get real, Pentax is just a part, and not the biggest, of the OTHER.
05-24-2013, 08:15 AM   #1656
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It upset me to know nothing about plans of Ricoh and Pentax...
GR is good, but it's really marginal and specific product.

I have no any news about GXR system. It's hard to understand the situation with new Pentax cameras...New lenses...
A lot of talks again, but I don't see any serious results.

Good sales of Q in Japan is neither meat, nor fish for me.
Really outstanding MF 90 macro is nothing for 99.9999% of Pentax users.

Want to see more solid and popular products....
I'm absolutely indifferent to GR, Q, 645D. And I think I'm not alone here.
05-24-2013, 08:16 AM   #1657
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Want to see more solid and popular products....
Dead on, IMO. There hasn't been an exciting Pentax product since the K-5 in October 2010, IMO.

Last edited by ElJamoquio; 05-24-2013 at 08:24 AM.
05-24-2013, 08:30 AM - 1 Like   #1658
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New Pentax products since the Ricoh take-over!

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
In about 5 weeks we shall celebrate the official 2 years anniversary on the announcement that Ricoh will marry Pentax.
Or shall we rather say, 'commemorate 2 years after', in silence and regret, holding candles?
It seems the marriage hasn't been consumed as all the kids from previous marriages had hoped. Therefore I think it would be good to end this almost endless thread and talks about the baby junior, dubbed the K3. The baby was never born. Either the father was infertile, or the mother reached her late age, matters little.
Well this did wonder me:
  • 645D Grand Prix Limited Edition
  • Optio RZ18
  • Optio VS20
  • K-01
  • DA 40mm/f2.8 xs
  • Optio WG-2 and WG-2 GPS
  • K-5 Silver Special Edition with Silver 40mm/f2.8 xs lens
  • D FA 645 25mm F4 Al [IF] (released)
  • DA 50mm/f1.8
  • K-30
  • Pentax X-5 bridgecamera
  • D FA 645 Macro 90mm/f2.8 (stabalized lens)
  • Q-10
  • Q mount 06 zoomlens.
  • DA 18-270mm/f3.5-6.3 ED SDM
  • HD 560mm/f5.6 AW
  • K-5 II and K-5 IIs
  • MX-1
  • Optio WG-10
  • Optio WG-3 and WG-3 GPS
  • 645D IR

So this not an empty list. A lot off the products probably where from the designstage starting (or almost ended) from Hoya. Offcourse you launch those products, otherwhise the R&D money spend is wasted.

So not yet a K-3 (real K-5 replacement) nor 645D replacement, not even a Full Frame. But to say Pentax does nothing is not true.

05-24-2013, 08:35 AM   #1659
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Mistral:
Don't play with words, of course the sales increase was primarily due to Pentax' acquisition. "due to", AFAIK, doesn't mean "from"; and here it simply means Pentax added their own sales into the equation.

How much of the OTHER was reclassified? You don't know, right? They only say about "certain products", yet you claim that everything but Pentax was reclassified. And of course, they couldn't be bothered to rename the division "Pentax". Ridiculous.

After the reclassification Pentax still accounted for a single digit sales increase. They're applying this reclassification for both 2012 and 2013 data.

Get real, Pentax is just a part, and not the biggest, of the OTHER.
You have a point with the "Others" business segment not being renamed "Digital Cameras" (definitely not Pentax, there are Ricoh cameras).

But you are contradicting your own position in underlying that, after the reclassification, Pentax still accounted for a single digit increase in sales, the reclassification having been applied to both 2012 and 2013 data.

Just imagine, for the sake of discussion, that Pentax accounted for half of the sales in the "Others" business segment and that the entire growth of this segment came from Pentax (they wrote "Net sales in the Other segment increased by 8.7% (...) due to contribution in sales from Pentax Ricoh Imaging Co., Ltd"), the remaining (unidentified) activities in the "Others" business segment being flat.

This means that the growth in PRIC sales should have been 2 x 8.7 = 17.4%.

If the sales from PRIC accounted for one third of the sales in the "Others" business segment, the growth in PRIC sales should have been 3 x 8.7 = 26.1%.

Do you believe this is possible?
05-24-2013, 08:51 AM   #1660
ogl
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well this did wonder me:
  • 645D Grand Prix Limited Edition
  • Optio RZ18
  • Optio VS20
  • K-01
  • DA 40mm/f2.8 xs
  • Optio WG-2 and WG-2 GPS
  • K-5 Silver Special Edition with Silver 40mm/f2.8 xs lens
  • D FA 645 25mm F4 Al [IF] (released)
  • DA 50mm/f1.8
  • K-30
  • Pentax X-5 bridgecamera
  • D FA 645 Macro 90mm/f2.8 (stabalized lens)
  • Q-10
  • Q mount 06 zoomlens.
  • DA 18-270mm/f3.5-6.3 ED SDM
  • HD 560mm/f5.6 AW
  • K-5 II and K-5 IIs
  • MX-1
  • Optio WG-10
  • Optio WG-3 and WG-3 GPS
  • 645D IR
waxworks exhibition
05-24-2013, 09:06 AM   #1661
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Mistral:
It's Pentax Ricoh Imaging Company, not "Ricoh cameras".

Nope, I'm not contradicting anything I said (while sober, not tired, not in a hurry, while not being distracted by anything etc ).

I will imagine your math is off. Pentax was not "available" (part of "Other") in the entire FY2012, but only the last 2 quarters. We have 2 quarters in FY2013 where all Pentax sales were "growth".
If Pentax were 50% of "Other", i.e. they would sell as much as every other "Other" business, they would get only from those 2 quarters a 50% growth; 100% for the 2 quarters, spread for the entire year. If they were one third, that means 1:2 ratio, i.e. 50% for the 2 quarters, spread to an yearly 20%. Just from being there.
So they're not even one sixth of "Other". Am I right?

Last edited by Kunzite; 05-24-2013 at 09:14 AM.
05-24-2013, 09:31 AM   #1662
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Mistral:
It's Pentax Ricoh Imaging Company, not "Ricoh cameras".

Nope, I'm not contradicting anything I said (while sober, not tired, not in a hurry, while not being distracted by anything etc ).

I will imagine your math is off. Pentax was not "available" (part of "Other") in the entire FY2012, but only the last 2 quarters. We have 2 quarters in FY2013 where all Pentax sales were "growth".
If Pentax were 50% of "Other", i.e. they would sell as much as every other "Other" business, they would get only from those 2 quarters a 50% growth; 100% for the 2 quarters, spread for the entire year. If they were one third, that means 1:2 ratio, i.e. 50% for the 2 quarters, spread to an yearly 20%. Just from being there.
So they're not even one sixth of "Other". Am I right?
You do a lot of gymnastics to try and prove that everything is A-OK with Pentax...
When i go to zoos, aquariums, sporting events, amusement park ie a lot of places with high population of cameras, i see Nikons, Canons, NEXs, Olympus and Fujis. I have seen exactly ZERO Pentax's at any of those places, and i do keep a look out for those with Pentax's because I would like to chat them up. Yet, that opportunity has never come up.

The figure that floats around is that Pentax has 5% of the marketshare. How can you spin that to make it look satisfactory?
05-24-2013, 09:32 AM   #1663
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It's Pentax Ricoh Imaging Company, not "Ricoh cameras".
It's a bunch of brand-tied senior executives who have no capacity to reorganize the product lines for efficiency. Sclerotic Japan Inc. can still engineer, but organize and distribute products in a networked world is increasingly problematic. No manager will suggest sacrificing brands or models for fear of disloyalty, so they plough on with zombie products and inability to grow markets or reach new ones.
05-24-2013, 09:34 AM   #1664
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Mistral:
It's Pentax Ricoh Imaging Company, not "Ricoh cameras".

Nope, I'm not contradicting anything I said (while sober, not tired, not in a hurry, while not being distracted by anything etc ).

I will imagine your math is off. Pentax was not "available" (part of "Other") in the entire FY2012, but only the last 2 quarters. We have 2 quarters in FY2013 where all Pentax sales were "growth".
If Pentax were 50% of "Other", i.e. they would sell as much as every other "Other" business, they would get only from those 2 quarters a 50% growth; 100% for the 2 quarters, spread for the entire year. If they were one third, that means 1:2 ratio, i.e. 50% for the 2 quarters, spread to an yearly 20%. Just from being there.
So they're not even one sixth of "Other". Am I right?
You are totally right. I don't know why, I assumed that Ricoh took Pentax over on October 1st, 2010 and not, as it stands, on October 1st, 2011, half way in FY2012 . My bad.

So, if the JPY 11.7bn increase in sales in the "Other" segment comes from the consolidation of Pentax sales during a whole year instead of half a year, it gives JPY 11.7 x 2 = 23.4bn for said sales over the entire FY2013. A bit more by the way since there is some seasonality: the sales during the busy Christmas period were already consolidated in FY2012 so the "missing half" is smaller than the other one.

Nevertheless these JPY 25-30bn Pentax sales seem low.

I copy here the calculation I made a few messages above:

QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
(...)
CIPA figures for April 1st, 2012 - March 30th, 2013 are:
  • 15,414,830 DSLRs shipped generating sales for OEMs of JPY 603bn (==> average unit price is JPY 40,000 i.e. USD 400)
  • 22,322,208 "Lenses for smaller than 35mm format Cameras" shipped generating sales for OEMs of JPY 272bn.

Applying a 4.5% ratio to the former and a 3% ratio to the latter (to take out Sigma and Tamron lenses in K mount), I find potential sales of Pentax DSLRs and lenses of JPY 37bn (circa USD 400m) i.e. 25 per cent. of net sales in the Other segment.
(...)
In doing so, I do not take into account the following Pentax sales:
  • 645, FA and D-FA lenses
  • Q/Q10 bodies
  • Compact cameras
  • Accessories (including flashguns)
  • Maintenance and repairs
nor do I, of course, take into account, the sales of Ricoh branded products and services.

The mystery therefore remains and I am eventually inclined to agree with falconeye's conclusion:

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
(...)

My conclusion:

Since the aquisition of Pentax by Ricoh, we don't have any way anymore to get hold of Pentax business data by looking into investment documentation.

Last edited by Mistral75; 05-24-2013 at 09:41 AM.
05-24-2013, 09:54 AM   #1665
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No problem it's an interesting discussion.
And I agree, we can at best speculate and extrapolate from more general data.

QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
You do a lot of gymnastics to try and prove that everything is A-OK with Pentax...
[...]

The figure that floats around is that Pentax has 5% of the marketshare. How can you spin that to make it look satisfactory?
FYI, the subject was if Pentax is or isn't a significant part of "Other", and I claimed it isn't. I said no word about market share, and I didn't said anything is "A-OK".
It's you who intervened into a discussion based on facts/numbers, doing a lot of gymnastics to completely misrepresent my position.
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