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06-05-2013, 06:08 PM   #1996
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul Ewins Quote
I'll repeat this bit:

The days of people using hyperfocal distances are long gone as are the DOF scales on lenses. How many people use DOF preview, assuming that their camera is capable of doing so? The only time they will need to know the difference is if they want to achieve extremely narrow DOF in which case simply telling them to buy a full frame camera and a fast 50 or 85 will be enough. In all other cases they should be able to achieve the desired DOF by altering the aperture until the preview looks right.
Or they do what I do, shoot at as many different Apertures as possible and select the best image afterwards. Then all you have to do is select the best image, which is very rarely the one with the narrowest DoF. But, every now an then I'm surprise like maybe 2 or 3 times out of 1/00 keepers a 2.8 image might be the keeper. I'm guessing if I had a 1.4 lens, maybe one in 5 of those the 1.4 would be the best image. And in maybe one in 5 of those a 1.4 FF would be the best image. So you can say, if you don't have an FF camera you might miss a few shots...

06-05-2013, 10:35 PM   #1997
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Or they do what I do, shoot at as many different Apertures as possible and select the best image afterwards. Then all you have to do is select the best image, which is very rarely the one with the narrowest DoF. But, every now an then I'm surprise like maybe 2 or 3 times out of 1/00 keepers a 2.8 image might be the keeper. I'm guessing if I had a 1.4 lens, maybe one in 5 of those the 1.4 would be the best image. And in maybe one in 5 of those a 1.4 FF would be the best image. So you can say, if you don't have an FF camera you might miss a few shots...
The largest market segment for professional photography is wedding photography. You can't have the bride walk down the isle 3 times so you can shoot at different apertures. The whole point of hiring a professional is to have someone who knows what aperture to shoot before its time to press the shutter release. For indoor events you will live at F/2-F/4 and the relatively thin DoF is desired to help isolate your subject for the typically busy background. Lots of professional photographers shoot FF at F/2.8 with excellent results. The 5D series and the 85L are the bread and butter combo for thousands of professional photographers.
06-05-2013, 11:39 PM   #1998
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I hope nobody is hiring inexperienced photographers for his wedding...
06-06-2013, 06:35 AM   #1999
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The largest market segment for professional photography is wedding photography. You can't have the bride walk down the isle 3 times so you can shoot at different apertures. The whole point of hiring a professional is to have someone who knows what aperture to shoot before its time to press the shutter release. For indoor events you will live at F/2-F/4 and the relatively thin DoF is desired to help isolate your subject for the typically busy background. Lots of professional photographers shoot FF at F/2.8 with excellent results. The 5D series and the 85L are the bread and butter combo for thousands of professional photographers.
The fact that they shoot F 2.8 with great results on FF doesn't mean they wouldn't have a better image if they'd shot an different F-stop. There's a difference between "I know this shot will be acceptable", and "I know this shot will be the best it can be." If you're not trying different F-stops with your images, you're settling. I say this after breaking myself of the habit of depending on my "professional" judgement. Half the time the image that is the best image is not the image I originally thought I would select. Wedding photographers are very good at producing predictable results in often trying circumstances and limited time, but I wouldn't be holding them up as the shining lights of photography. When you go to a gallery and look at work, how many exhibits have you seen done by wedding photographers? I'm not going to say I've never seen one, but you're talking a section of photography that isn't known for it's creativity, or for being cutting edge.


Last edited by normhead; 06-06-2013 at 06:50 AM.
06-06-2013, 07:21 AM   #2000
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The fact that they shoot F 2.8 with great results on FF doesn't mean they wouldn't have a better image if they'd shot an different F-stop.
My understanding is the most popular glass for Canon FF is the f/4 zooms. And by most popular I mean outsells all the other glass combined. That's what my shop tells me.
06-06-2013, 07:47 AM   #2001
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
is the f/4 zooms
Indeed - the f4 17-40L, f4 24-70L, f4 28-105L and the 70-200 f4 as examples. Workhorse lenses, very good, very popular in Canonland, even amongst wedding photogs.
06-06-2013, 09:50 AM   #2002
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
If you're not trying different F-stops with your images, you're settling.
What I'm saying is you don't have time to "try different F-stops". The bride walks down the isle once and you get one series of shots to capture that. You better know what you are going to shoot before the music starts playing.

Most event photography (wedding, music, sports) is about capturing that split second in time. You don't control your lighting and you get one shot to get it right.
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
My understanding is the most popular glass for Canon FF is the f/4 zooms. And by most popular I mean outsells all the other glass combined. That's what my shop tells me.
QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
ndeed - the f4 17-40L, f4 24-70L, f4 28-105L and the 70-200 f4 as examples. Workhorse lenses, very good, very popular in Canonland, even amongst wedding photogs.
The 24-105L was the kit lens (might still be) for the 5D when I bought mine. I don't know a lot of upper end wedding togs that shoot a lot zooms. I was using the 24-70L, 85L, & 135L pretty much exclusively. I have a friend who shoots with the 5DII and the 35L, 50L, & 85L 90% of the time. She does keep a wide angle zoom in the bag but I forget which one she uses.

When you are working all day on a wedding weight does become an issue. We shot a wedding several years back that literally started with sunrise photos and ended well after midnight. The Contax 645 turned my arms into jello the next day.... But even by that evening I was feeling it. Big F/2.8 zooms are not fun for all day use, so I can see why people would opt for smaller & lighter zooms. The 24-105L is an excellent lens. The old 24-70L was decent, but nothing special.

I'm sure there are a lot of people using F/4 zooms for wedding work. There are a lot of people using Rebels as well. I'm sure there are more Rebels being used for wedding work that 5DIIIs, but that is a function of cost and not a reflection of what gives the best image quality.

In a room with a lot of people (wedding/concert/field of play) it can be hard to really isolate your subject. In a crowded room F/4 would probably be the smallest I would shoot my 85mm (depending on subject distance). I try to keep ISO down and shutter speed up as people are moving about. Many times I only want a DoF of 12" +/-. Working with primes I know exactly what my working distance needs to be and my aperture needs to be for a given lenses. With zooms I was getting sloppy and zooming in without adjusting my aperture to give me the DoF that I wanted. I also love the way the 85mm lenses render the subject. I have to change my working distance on the K-5, but its worth it. A 55mm might give you the same FoV on and APS-C as an 85mm on a FF, but the 55mm lens will always render like a 55mm lens. Its just not the same. My main reason for wanting Pentax to produce a FF body is so that my 85mm gives me a wider FoV and I can get back to my previous working distance. It is too long on an APS-C for many applications.

I realize that dirt photographers, architectural, macro, & street photographers have different needs and probably never shoot below F/5.6. Portrait & commercial togs that work in a studio and control their light also have different needs.

The reason Canon makes the 50mm and 85mm F/1.2 is because professionals buy and use them. Fuji has announced that their new 56mm will be F/1.2 because people at that price point want it. It is a very diverse market with a lot of different needs.
06-06-2013, 09:59 AM   #2003
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The reason Canon makes the 50mm and 85mm F/1.2 is because professionals buy and use them. Fuji has announced that their new 56mm will be F/1.2 because people at that price point want it. It is a very diverse market with a lot of different needs.
_______
And I bet for every 50 and 80/1.2 is sold, about 100 f/4's are made and sold.

Demand is there but small and the price to be part of that club very, very high. I routinely deal with 2 pro photogs and they both have to look for their 1.4's as they are infrequently in their bag. The need for an f/1.4 or larger aperture is rare, so the ROI is not great. I suspect that most sales of 1.2 glass is to hobbyist prosumers with money.

06-06-2013, 10:06 AM   #2004
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
And I bet for every 50 and 80/1.2 is sold, about 100 f/4's are made and sold.

Demand is there but small and the price to be part of that club very, very high. I routinely deal with 2 pro photogs and they both have to look for their 1.4's as they are infrequently in their bag. The need for an f/1.4 or larger aperture is rare, so the ROI is not great. I suspect that most sales of 1.2 glass is to hobbyist prosumers with money.
What is the ratio of Canon Rebels sold to Canon 1DX? Yes, there are diminishing returns as you move up.

Since Canon only makes it pro-grade 50mm and 85mm in F/1.2 i would guess they sell quite a few of them. They are bread and butter lenses for professional wedding photographers at the upper end of the market.

Fuji would not be moving to an F/1.2 if they didn't think it would generate more money.
06-06-2013, 12:27 PM   #2005
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
What I'm saying is you don't have time to "try different F-stops". The bride walks down the isle once and you get one series of shots to capture that. You better know what you are going to shoot before the music starts playing.

Most event photography (wedding, music, sports) is about capturing that split second in time. You don't control your lighting and you get one shot to get it right.



The 24-105L was the kit lens (might still be) for the 5D when I bought mine. I don't know a lot of upper end wedding togs that shoot a lot zooms. I was using the 24-70L, 85L, & 135L pretty much exclusively. I have a friend who shoots with the 5DII and the 35L, 50L, & 85L 90% of the time. She does keep a wide angle zoom in the bag but I forget which one she uses.

When you are working all day on a wedding weight does become an issue. We shot a wedding several years back that literally started with sunrise photos and ended well after midnight. The Contax 645 turned my arms into jello the next day.... But even by that evening I was feeling it. Big F/2.8 zooms are not fun for all day use, so I can see why people would opt for smaller & lighter zooms. The 24-105L is an excellent lens. The old 24-70L was decent, but nothing special.

I'm sure there are a lot of people using F/4 zooms for wedding work. There are a lot of people using Rebels as well. I'm sure there are more Rebels being used for wedding work that 5DIIIs, but that is a function of cost and not a reflection of what gives the best image quality.

In a room with a lot of people (wedding/concert/field of play) it can be hard to really isolate your subject. In a crowded room F/4 would probably be the smallest I would shoot my 85mm (depending on subject distance). I try to keep ISO down and shutter speed up as people are moving about. Many times I only want a DoF of 12" +/-. Working with primes I know exactly what my working distance needs to be and my aperture needs to be for a given lenses. With zooms I was getting sloppy and zooming in without adjusting my aperture to give me the DoF that I wanted. I also love the way the 85mm lenses render the subject. I have to change my working distance on the K-5, but its worth it. A 55mm might give you the same FoV on and APS-C as an 85mm on a FF, but the 55mm lens will always render like a 55mm lens. Its just not the same. My main reason for wanting Pentax to produce a FF body is so that my 85mm gives me a wider FoV and I can get back to my previous working distance. It is too long on an APS-C for many applications.

I realize that dirt photographers, architectural, macro, & street photographers have different needs and probably never shoot below F/5.6. Portrait & commercial togs that work in a studio and control their light also have different needs.

The reason Canon makes the 50mm and 85mm F/1.2 is because professionals buy and use them. Fuji has announced that their new 56mm will be F/1.2 because people at that price point want it. It is a very diverse market with a lot of different needs.
Our daughter's wedding photographer used a D4 with only two lenses: Nikon's 24-70/2.8 and 70-200/2.8. I think from her standpoint, there's no time to change lenses just as there's no time to change aperture.
06-06-2013, 02:42 PM   #2006
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
used a D4
You mean just one body? Doesn't sound like a pro...one body per lens sounds like a pro. Maybe a D700 + a D4, which is a common Nikon event pro combo, both hanging off Black Rapid harnesses. That's a pro. Your daughter should get her money back
06-06-2013, 02:43 PM   #2007
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That's what I was thinking too. I'm a nobody but I wouldn't walk into a wedding without two cameras.
06-06-2013, 02:58 PM   #2008
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Our daughter's wedding photographer used a D4 with only two lenses: Nikon's 24-70/2.8 and 70-200/2.8. I think from her standpoint, there's no time to change lenses just as there's no time to change aperture.
I sure there are many who do that. The ones I know typically have a harness with 2 bodies and use 2 5DII's with 2 different lenses. I carried my Contax 645 and a Canon 5D both with primes. I know one who also has a 3rd camera (currently a Fuji X100s) out and ready.

The market is very diverse and there are people doing it a thousand different ways. I know of several aspiring wedding togs who use Canon 7Ds and one super slow, super soft, super zoom for the entire shoot. I have shot an outdoor wedding with my Olympus E-3 and 14-35/35-100, but I don't recommend it. If Olympus was making high quality primes or the 4/3 system like they make for the M4/3 (12mm, 45mm, 75mm) I would probably still be using Olympus.

I carried my 24-70L and used it but it was week at both ends of its range and so I just used my 50L most of the time. the original 24-70L lens is average at best compared to a prime. The new 24-70L is said to be much improved. I almost moved to a Sony A900 because of the CZ 24-70, CZ 85mm, & CZ 135.

Last edited by Winder; 06-06-2013 at 03:42 PM.
06-06-2013, 04:28 PM   #2009
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When I shoot Weddings, I use only two lenses also, the Nikon 24-70/2.8 and 70-200/2.8 on two D700 bodies, those 2.8 lenses gain me extra speed when not using a flash and are extremely sharp.
06-06-2013, 04:36 PM   #2010
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QuoteOriginally posted by ennacac Quote
When I shoot Weddings, I use only two lenses also, the Nikon 24-70/2.8 and 70-200/2.8 on two D700 bodies, those 2.8 lenses gain me extra speed when not using a flash and are extremely sharp.
The Nikon 24-70 is a really good lens. I would have no problem using it. The 70-200 is too long for what I typically have needed in the past. Even my 135L was used only occasionally. My 85L was my most used on my 5D and the 80mm F/2 on the 645. Since selling my 5D and Canon glass I am using the Contax 80% of the time and my K-5 can match the IQ and high ISO of my 5D.

How often do you shoot at F/2.8? Those D700s handle low light really well.
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