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07-27-2013, 01:45 AM   #2116
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What does the magic 8 ball say?


Last edited by HawaiianOnline; 07-27-2013 at 01:46 AM. Reason: Changed emoticon...
07-28-2013, 12:48 AM   #2117
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QuoteOriginally posted by HawaiianOnline Quote
What does the magic 8 ball say?
"Try again later"...


07-28-2013, 03:01 AM   #2118
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Not again.


Correct, diffraction effects will not get worse; they won't even be more noticeable, if you make proper comparisons, such as looking at the whole image, or looking at crops at the same (effective) magnification.

Of course a 1:1 pixel-peeping crop of a 32MP image will look worse than that of a 6MP image, but that's because every image degradation is magnified.
I don't agree, if printing really large you might not notice much loss in details going from f/2.8 to f/16 if using a 6MP APS-C camera, but you will notice much more loss in details doing the same prints with 32MP APS-C. The 32MP camera at f/16 will still give more details than a 6MP at the same aperture, but the difference in details will not be as large as if comparing 6MP with 32MP at f/2.8. (if using a lens that do not limit the resolution of the 32MP sensor)

Last edited by Fogel70; 07-28-2013 at 03:15 AM.
07-28-2013, 03:27 AM   #2119
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But would you be happy with a smaller "loss in details", if you're starting with much less details to begin with?
You could always blur the open aperture images, if you wish... in fact you could blur everything up to the point there will be no "loss in details". Sorry, but this metrics doesn't make much sense IMO.

07-28-2013, 03:31 AM   #2120
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
I don't agree, if printing really large you might not notice much loss in details going from f/2.8 to f/16 if using a 6MP APS-C camera, but you will notice much more loss in details doing the same prints with 32MP APS-C. The 32MP camera at f/16 will still give more details than a 6MP at the same aperture, but the difference in details will not be as large as if comparing 6MP with 32MP at f/2.8. (if using a lens that do not limit the resolution of the 32MP sensor)
There is a significant difference between 24 MP and 6 MP print, at any aperture, if done on sizes A3 and above.
The difference is already visible on A4 print, but on A3, its becomes obvious even to a child.
07-28-2013, 03:36 AM   #2121
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
But would you be happy with a smaller "loss in details", if you're starting with much less details to begin with?
Of course not, but I might have to change the way I shoot if I want utilize the full IQ of a 24MP+ camera. FI I might want to use larger apertures with focus stacking shooting landscapes, instead of using small apertures.
QuoteQuote:
You could always blur the open aperture images, if you wish... in fact you could blur everything up to the point there will be no "loss in details". Sorry, but this metrics doesn't make much sense IMO.
Now you are really foolish.
07-28-2013, 03:40 AM   #2122
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
There is a significant difference between 24 MP and 6 MP print, at any aperture, if done on sizes A3 and above.
The difference is already visible on A4 print, but on A3, its becomes obvious even to a child.
It will not be a much difference in IQ between 6MP and 24MP if using f/32 and smaller apertures.
07-28-2013, 04:20 AM   #2123
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
It will not be a much difference in IQ between 6MP and 24MP if using f/32 and smaller apertures.
This is getting highly academic - who uses f/32 nowadays anyway? Maybe for macros I guess, but personally I very rarely go past f/11 even for macros, and almost never past f/8 for other shots, except for the odd landscape shot with very close objects in the foreground.

07-28-2013, 05:18 AM - 1 Like   #2124
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
I don't agree, if printing really large you might not notice much loss in details going from f/2.8 to f/16 if using a 6MP APS-C camera, but you will notice much more loss in details doing the same prints with 32MP APS-C. The 32MP camera at f/16 will still give more details than a 6MP at the same aperture, but the difference in details will not be as large as if comparing 6MP with 32MP at f/2.8. (if using a lens that do not limit the resolution of the 32MP sensor)
But the original complaint was that Pentax should not use as 32MP sensor because detail at a given f-stop would be worse than the 16MP sensor, which of course is incorrect. Using your argument, a 1 pixel (not MP) sensor wins, because you don't lose any detail regardless of how far you stop down.
07-28-2013, 05:38 AM   #2125
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
But the original complaint was that Pentax should not use as 32MP sensor because detail at a given f-stop would be worse than the 16MP sensor, which of course is incorrect. Using your argument, a 1 pixel (not MP) sensor wins, because you don't lose any detail regardless of how far you stop down.
How can you say that? I'm arguing for a 32MP sensor!
In most normal shooting situations you get more resolution from a higher resolution sensor, but with higher resolution sensor, diffraction start to limit resolution on larger apertures than on lower resolution sensors.
07-28-2013, 05:39 AM   #2126
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Of course not, but I might have to change the way I shoot if I want utilize the full IQ of a 24MP+ camera. FI I might want to use larger apertures with focus stacking shooting landscapes, instead of using small apertures.
You mean, you would have to change the way you shoot if you want to avoid diffraction being a problem, in such situations. Using a low resolution camera would not help.

By the way, if we were for example to look at Photozone's tests, the 70mm Limited on the K-5 still resolves a respectable 2453 LW/PH at f/11, while on the lower resolution K10D it can't reach this figure even at its optimal aperture. The story repeats for pretty much every lens (which was tested on both cameras), coming very close for e.g. the 31mm (1 LW) but never being surpassed.
An AA-less camera like the K-5 IIs should be even better.

Even in the worst case scenario, closing the lens at its minimum aperture, you won't get worse results.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Now you are really foolish.
Guess again.
07-28-2013, 05:46 AM   #2127
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But how many megapixels do we want or need for our daily images? It's nice for studiowork or work that gets exhibited, but most images never get cross facebook nowadays.
07-28-2013, 06:12 AM   #2128
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You mean, you would have to change the way you shoot if you want to avoid diffraction being a problem, in such situations. Using a low resolution camera would not help.
Yes, I know that, and I want higher resolution camera as I want to be able to capture higher resolution. To be able do that I might have to limit to larger apertures than I would use on lower resolution cameras.
QuoteQuote:
By the way, if we were for example to look at Photozone's tests, the 70mm Limited on the K-5 still resolves a respectable 2453 LW/PH at f/11, while on the lower resolution K10D it can't reach this figure even at its optimal aperture. The story repeats for pretty much every lens (which was tested on both cameras), coming very close for e.g. the 31mm (1 LW) but never being surpassed.
An AA-less camera like the K-5 IIs should be even better.

Even in the worst case scenario, closing the lens at its minimum aperture, you won't get worse results.
I don't really understand what you want to say with this, but If looking at DA70 test on Photozone, you might notice that resolution peak at f/4 on K-5 and at f/5.6 on K10D.
But there is not a big difference in resolution between K10D and K-5, as K10D don't use as strong AA-filter. Had Klaus used a K-5IIs it would probably have been much easier to see the trend of higher resolution sensor start to limit in resolution on larger apertures.

It just seems that we both are arguing for higher resolution sensors.
07-28-2013, 06:13 AM - 3 Likes   #2129
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
How can you say that? I'm arguing for a 32MP sensor!
In most normal shooting situations you get more resolution from a higher resolution sensor, but with higher resolution sensor, diffraction start to limit resolution on larger apertures than on lower resolution sensors.
If the sensor technology is fine, then adding more megapixels means a lot, including incredible detail.
However, how practical is all that?
- 32MP is a serious amount of megapixels.
- Big RAW files
- Requires seriously expensive lenses to show its value

I don't like to be a recipe man, but I think for everyday use, 16MP is enough for most people. That is a seriously good SRA3 print.
Myself, I'd love to have 24 MP APS-C sensor camera, because I can use those pixels, for print sizes I'd go to (SRA2) and montages and because I already have Pentax lenses that can cope with such resolution.

Add more MPs than that, and I wouldn't know what lens should I buy to justify it.

So I'd probably stop there for the APS-C. Because resolution isn't everything. It can be deceiving, and steering our attention from the overall artistic and true emotional quality of the image.

For those who dig scientific part of photography — and it seems 90% of users here are such types — let them use whatever they want and let them dream about 100 MP APS-C sensors. The tragedy I see in all that is that 95% of digital shots are just a waste on disk space, and that remaining 5% will be scaled down for a screen preview. And 0.001% of those 5% will be printed, maybe, on a max A3 size.

MP race serves most of the time just for gloating. And if we were to see what those 'hordes' of D800 users who switched from Pentax do with their new 36MP images, we'd most likely see the same story — are they all suddenly turned into correspondents for National Geographic? Yeah, right, it's same old sad story — quick pixel peeping at 100% to see the pixel glory and to justify the expense, calm down the conscience, and then resizing down those gigantic files to screen size and smartphone messaging. And printing once in a blue moon, and not even as a gift print to someone. Because in time of Facebook, printing is so 20th century.

And that is our reality. But we love to hide beyond the DXO charts, empty words and vanity.

Last edited by Uluru; 07-28-2013 at 06:28 AM.
07-28-2013, 06:40 AM   #2130
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
I don't really understand what you want to say with this, but If looking at DA70 test on Photozone, you might notice that resolution peak at f/4 on K-5 and at f/5.6 on K10D.
But there is not a big difference in resolution between K10D and K-5, as K10D don't use as strong AA-filter. Had Klaus used a K-5IIs it would probably have been much easier to see the trend of higher resolution sensor start to limit in resolution on larger apertures.
What I'm saying, is that the actual resolution is higher on the higher MP camera. If for example you're shooting at f/11, you wouldn't care where the camera+lens peaks, if you're getting more detail out of the K-5, right?

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
It just seems that we both are arguing for higher resolution sensors.
Indeed.
As long as technology is up there; so far the current 24MP APS-C sensors didn't impressed me. But once they will be (and even higher resolution ones), I see no reason why not having them in my camera.
What I would not want to see is a megapixel race, where higher numbers are pushed forward by marketing, but the quality is not up there. It is said Pentax postponed their 24MP model because they found image quality issues, and that's a stance I appreciate.
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