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07-28-2013, 06:44 AM - 1 Like   #2131
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One of the biggest issues related to the slowdown in camera sales is that as megapixels go up, they need more home PC processing power.

Except sales of home PC's are going down, replaced by LESS powerful devices like tablets.

So a D800's 100+ MB file size requires a consumer both to buy the camera and to buy against the trend in PC sales.

Ultimately we are going to see most PP done in-camera. Camera manufacturers can no longer rely on their supposed consumer base buying high-end PC's to process files.

And archiving is also an issue.


Last edited by Aristophanes; 07-28-2013 at 12:14 PM.
07-28-2013, 06:48 AM   #2132
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It is said Pentax postponed their 24MP model because they found image quality issues, and that's a stance I appreciate.
Was that quoted by an executive, or just speculation?
07-28-2013, 06:52 AM   #2133
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
What I'm saying, is that the actual resolution is higher on the higher MP camera. If for example you're shooting at f/11, you wouldn't care where the camera+lens peaks, if you're getting more detail out of the K-5, right?.
In many cases I would want to try to maximize IQ, so I would care where IQ peak. It's the same reason why I might want to get better glass on higher resolution camera.
07-28-2013, 08:08 AM   #2134
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
I don't agree, if printing really large you might not notice much loss in details going from f/2.8 to f/16 if using a 6MP APS-C camera, but you will notice much more loss in details doing the same prints with 32MP APS-C.
I did not say anything to the contrary.

You are arguing that a high MP has better resolution than a low MP camera, before diffraction sets in and levels out any differences.

That's correct and I didn't say anything else.

I think we agree that high MP cameras do not have any disadvantages compared to low MP cameras (except perhaps for file size) and certainly have no disadvantage regarding "diffraction effects hitting earlier".

07-28-2013, 08:16 AM   #2135
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
One of the biggest issues related to the slowdown in camera sales is that as megapixels go up, they need more home PC processing power.

Except sales of home PC's are going down, replaced by LESS powerful devices like tablets.

So a D800's 100+ MB file size requires a consumer both to buy the camera and to buy against the trend in PC sales.

Ultimately we are going to see most PP done in-carmera. Camera manufacturers can no longer rely on their supposed consumer base buying high-end PC's to process files.

And archiving is also an issue.
Perhaps you do but I don't know one person who has ditched their PC. Sure, upgrade cycles by consumers have lengthened as the technology has matured and that has contributed to a sales decline. Every person I know with a tablet has bought it to augment their PC, not fully replace it.

None of this is to say tablet PP of photos isn't going to be a bigger need or want but the heavy lifting of a high volume of camera RAWs I expect will still be done on a PC.
07-28-2013, 09:22 AM   #2136
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The trend in camera sales is to use your smartphone and upload your snapshoots to Facebook; the D800 user is definitely not following such trends. Would he care about slowing PC sales, if they - and not tablets - do the job?

QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Was that quoted by an executive, or just speculation?
Since I don't have executive quotes to show you, take it as a speculation - of the reasons a new high-end camera is not here yet. I remember some talks about sensor cross talk issues around here (or was it the other forum), but unfortunately not the details.
I hope it was clear from my previous post that I'm not saying it as a fact.
07-28-2013, 09:51 AM - 2 Likes   #2137
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I think the file size argument is overplayed.
What photographers think of as "high processing demand" PC Gamers would scoff at and 2TB external harddrives that fit in your pocket are available for under $150.
07-28-2013, 10:41 AM   #2138
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Overplayed indeed. And anyone who can pay for any flagship DSLR, and a few lenses, can also easily pay for a computer with adequate processing power.

07-28-2013, 12:20 PM   #2139
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Hmm, 6 cores at 4.2 ghz, 16gb ddr3 ram, 8 tb hdd space, nvidia 650 gtx with 2gb ram? I can handle big file sizes. Photo processing isn't the primary job my computer does anyway, though I have plenty of storage since it's cheap!

I don't get complaints about file sizes. I really don't. You should see video file sizes before you complain about pictures, and you should see what it takes to process and edit video before complaining about processing RAW files. Personally I want to have the best performance from my pictures that I can get for a reasonable cost.
07-28-2013, 12:28 PM   #2140
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Perhaps you do but I don't know one person who has ditched their PC. Sure, upgrade cycles by consumers have lengthened as the technology has matured and that has contributed to a sales decline. Every person I know with a tablet has bought it to augment their PC, not fully replace it.

None of this is to say tablet PP of photos isn't going to be a bigger need or want but the heavy lifting of a high volume of camera RAWs I expect will still be done on a PC.
Current PC sales say that people are not upgrading or replacing with anywhere near the fervour of a decade ago.

Tablets are now being re-positioned and sold as NOT needing a PC. We now have a utility company completely replacing their entire laptop fleet with tablets tied to a couple of PC's back at home office. As this trend continues it will have a huge impact on camera sales because more MP's requiring processing will not have as large a market. For most homes the home PC is vastly over-powered.

Does Nikon sell PC's? No. DSLR's went through a boom partly based on the home PC, but with so much of the world not using home PC's, the photographic hobby industry cannot keep putting out prosumer FF systems on the expectation that people will have a PC.

I expect RAW to increasingly move into a niche for very high-end users who still invest in home PC's. But RAW use will no longer drive the industry the same way as consumers start to realize that their $2,000 D600 is only showing stuff on Facebook.

Markets can, and have, retracted away from over-powered, over-purchasing, and I sense this happening in cameras the same way it is in PC's. And in cars. In the late 1980's matrix metering was suddenly going to turn everyone into a slide photographer. The industry ramped up with more expensive cameras and models to help everyone take that leap. It was going to rejuvenate camera sales.

It largely flopped. Most people still wanted prints. Slide film was costlier. Good exposure relied on more than just a chipped metering system. And so on. This trend was the start of the end for Minolta and Contax who were heavily invested in prosumer hobbyists. Canon and Nikon were buffered by their professional users. And poor slide film is looking like it will go the way of the Dodo.

Any manufacturer right now who bets that a 24MP FF camera will sell into a growth market, but is still reliant on strong PC growth to process the RAW files, is a manufacturer who needs cold water splashed onto their face. Developing world economies with vast numbers moving into the middle class are not buying PC's; but they are buying cameras. So we will see cameras not needing PC's in the same way we now see cameras not needing a labor printers.
07-28-2013, 12:44 PM   #2141
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Current PC sales say that people are not upgrading or replacing with anywhere near the fervour of a decade ago.

Tablets are now being re-positioned and sold as NOT needing a PC. We now have a utility company completely replacing their entire laptop fleet with tablets tied to a couple of PC's back at home office. As this trend continues it will have a huge impact on camera sales because more MP's requiring processing will not have as large a market. For most homes the home PC is vastly over-powered.

Does Nikon sell PC's? No. DSLR's went through a boom partly based on the home PC, but with so much of the world not using home PC's, the photographic hobby industry cannot keep putting out prosumer FF systems on the expectation that people will have a PC.

I expect RAW to increasingly move into a niche for very high-end users who still invest in home PC's. But RAW use will no longer drive the industry the same way as consumers start to realize that their $2,000 D600 is only showing stuff on Facebook.

Markets can, and have, retracted away from over-powered, over-purchasing, and I sense this happening in cameras the same way it is in PC's. And in cars. In the late 1980's matrix metering was suddenly going to turn everyone into a slide photographer. The industry ramped up with more expensive cameras and models to help everyone take that leap. It was going to rejuvenate camera sales.

It largely flopped. Most people still wanted prints. Slide film was costlier. Good exposure relied on more than just a chipped metering system. And so on. This trend was the start of the end for Minolta and Contax who were heavily invested in prosumer hobbyists. Canon and Nikon were buffered by their professional users. And poor slide film is looking like it will go the way of the Dodo.

Any manufacturer right now who bets that a 24MP FF camera will sell into a growth market, but is still reliant on strong PC growth to process the RAW files, is a manufacturer who needs cold water splashed onto their face. Developing world economies with vast numbers moving into the middle class are not buying PC's; but they are buying cameras. So we will see cameras not needing PC's in the same way we now see cameras not needing a labor printers.
I seriously doubt any post processing of photo files was being done on a fleet of utility company PCs.

As I previously wrote, I don't know of a single instance of someone replacing their home PC (the ones people put their digital photos on) with a tablet. Also, you don't need a faster PC to process bigger files... just some more RAM a bigger drive to hold them.
07-28-2013, 12:58 PM   #2142
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I expect RAW to increasingly move into a niche for very high-end users who still invest in home PC's.
Yeah, that is possible. For everyone else, it will be in-camera, tablet, or smartphone "instant" processing. And straight to cloud storage, facebook, or whatever. And cameras will probably be getting smaller, like the popular Oly Pen and Sony Nex.
Big cameras, like D800 will fall into the same niche as 645D.
I expect that someone who will buy a high-end camera will also have to "make a darkroom", which of course these days means a powerful computer, that will cost as much as the camera.
07-28-2013, 01:44 PM   #2143
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QuoteOriginally posted by Na Horuk Quote
I expect that someone who will buy a high-end camera will also have to "make a darkroom", which of course these days means a powerful computer, that will cost as much as the camera.
That would be the most logical and sensible thing to do but I'm sure most people (excluding Pros, agencies etc. of course) don't.
07-28-2013, 02:26 PM   #2144
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
That would be the most logical and sensible thing to do but I'm sure most people (excluding Pros, agencies etc. of course) don't.
And they did not in the days of film. Darkrooms were a tiny, niche, side-hobby of the entire photographic industry, and mostly relegated to black and white.
07-28-2013, 02:31 PM   #2145
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QuoteOriginally posted by Na Horuk Quote
I expect that someone who will buy a high-end camera will also have to "make a darkroom", which of course these days means a powerful computer, that will cost as much as the camera.
Well to some point this is true. I made a calculation a few years ago and came too three parts camera - lenses - the rest that consume about the same amount off money on a long run. So you invest in stuff and even it out over the time you can use it. A lens can go longer then the camerabody and the 27 inch screen lives longer then your PC or printer.
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