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07-28-2013, 06:53 PM   #2161
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I got a 3 x 3 terabyte raid in my box, they were $160 a piece. I upgraded to 16 gb memory from 8 for a couple hundred bucks. My not the latest processor and onboard video handle the K5 files just fine. I use Darktable, and if the files are bigger or more demanding, I can spend $5-600 on a good video card to get more speed.

I agree that this is an issue for camera manufacturers. Also for those selling cloud services. Uploading a bunch of edited jpegs to google+ takes minutes on my cable connection. I ran into a fellow, retired, who spent his money to buy a nice camera, the D800, and the first thing he said about it is how much computer resources it takes. Just wait till LBA starts kicking in.

07-28-2013, 07:55 PM - 2 Likes   #2162
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I love seeing how this topic has devolved into a why Pentax should not do anything different other than tweaking what they have or else all is lost thread. Let's quit focusing on why they can't do X, and what we think will be coming and what kind of improvements would be nice.

I would like more ISO range, mainly lower, no AA filter, the ability to select SDM or screwdrive in the body, and more MP for more editing headroom would be nice. Give me less noise, better autofocus with smaller AF points too, and if they had a full spectrum/IR/IR+color set of options that would be awesome!
07-28-2013, 08:16 PM - 1 Like   #2163
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
but Flickr has 1TB for free...but it's all JPEG...so why did I just spend all that time and money on RAW PP?
You absolutely cannot be serious with this question, or you don't understand what RAW processing is about at all.

Your "cruise" example with one person sending hourly updates to Facebook and the other taking ages with their DSLR is broken as well. If the DSLR person cannot take images that are different to that of the smartphone user, they should indeed leave the DSLR at home. But many people will be able to take advantage of the superior potential of a DSLR and will take images that are worth waiting for a bit longer.

This whole idea of DSLRs having lost their raison d'Ítre just because PCs don't sell as much as they used to is just silly, AFAIC.

If only someone invented a DSLR that could produce JPGs without the use of a PC and print them to a printer without using a PC. Oh wait, my K100D can do that.
And the first DSLRs with built-in WiFi are appearing as well. Not that it is as useful as it sounds at the moment.
07-28-2013, 08:23 PM   #2164
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
And the first DSLRs with built-in WiFi are appearing as well. Not that it is as useful as it sounds at the moment.
So far as the media industry goes (at least in my place, close to my line of work) this is a hit among photographers shooting at celebrity events. Gets them Canon 6D shooters more connections easier than those who have to make the hitmakers wait...

07-28-2013, 08:32 PM - 1 Like   #2165
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
So far as the media industry goes (at least in my place, close to my line of work) this is a hit among photographers shooting at celebrity events. Gets them Canon 6D shooters more connections easier than those who have to make the hitmakers wait...
It's pity it's used for dumb celebrity events more than for reportage, or some real journalism.
But that happens also because celebrity famdom needs no editing — every junk suffices the purpose, the uglier the better — while news are best if put in the context or of a wider and more intelligent editorial. But we are losing that too, rapidly.

Question is: is quality editorial possible in the age of dumbed down social media and the pointless and shoot?

Last edited by Uluru; 07-28-2013 at 08:41 PM.
07-28-2013, 09:03 PM   #2166
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
You absolutely cannot be serious with this question, or you don't understand what RAW processing is about at all.

Your "cruise" example with one person sending hourly updates to Facebook and the other taking ages with their DSLR is broken as well. If the DSLR person cannot take images that are different to that of the smartphone user, they should indeed leave the DSLR at home. But many people will be able to take advantage of the superior potential of a DSLR and will take images that are worth waiting for a bit longer.

This whole idea of DSLRs having lost their raison d'Ítre just because PCs don't sell as much as they used to is just silly, AFAIC.

If only someone invented a DSLR that could produce JPGs without the use of a PC and print them to a printer without using a PC. Oh wait, my K100D can do that.
And the first DSLRs with built-in WiFi are appearing as well. Not that it is as useful as it sounds at the moment.
You are completely lost.

The DSLR market is driven by the desire for "better" photos than a P&S. Been that way since the 1970's (well, it was a "pocket camera" and not a P&S back then).

However we are in a phase where the system camera, despite a boom, is now at a plateau in sales or a number of reasons.

People will NOT wait for their photos to be"processed". They didn't in the film days and they won't now. The "moment" (and as a photographer we should all know what a moment is) has passed. And they ARE leaving the DSLR at home. That's the problem. This slows and stalls sales including the all important upgrade cycles.

The entire photographic industry is being turned on its head by networking via smartphones and DSLR's don't play nice and the main Japanese manufacturers are themselves somewhat lost in the networked world because most of their major manufacturers are not part of the mobileOS, Google/Android, Facebook, Apple, etc. markets.

It's completely gone by them and they are scrambling to catch up. They sold tens of millions of DSLR's to users who may not upgrade because of the PC intermediary issue. Very few DSLR purchasers use RAW. The bulk of the market uses JPEG. Your RAW use is heavily subsidized by the soccer Moms who shoot only JPEG and buys 6x more cameras than the PP "workflow" hobbyist. If you took those purchasers out of the system camera market you'd be paying Leica prices for a K-500 and an FF would be $20,000.

And your example is correct about the DPOF in-camera to printer. You know why that exists? Because most Japanese consumers don't have home PC's. They print at local kiosks. That system was designed for them. PC market penetration in Asia is actually very low. Your current K-mount cameras have analog output via RCA jacks or HDMI precisely to play directly on TV's because most of the Asian market has no home PC. They never viewed the home as a productivity space and went straight to discrete function computing like set-top boxes, game stations, and mobile OS devices. Most of your current K-mount in-camera processing functions are there to play to a non-PC market. I would say that about 30% of all DSLR's (less the pro level stuff weighted) are sold to users who have no home PC and less than 10% of all DSLR purchasers utilize RAW. I've tested RAW software and was astounded when given general sales stats at just how few users go from, say, iPhoto, to LR or Aperture. If the system camera market is about 25 million units per year, RAW software stats are maybe 10% of that, and I am being generous.

Your camera market is made or broken by the bulk consumer. The same ones who will not wait. If they move to mobile OS's with instant gratification, your products have to as well. It's as simple as that. It's leading to a shift in how cameras are designed where bandwidth and processing and battery power and Facebook/Flickr friendliness will determine the size of sensor and price point. The "pro" level and FF stuff will be so resource hungry it will be priced very high and stay there (and large enough to have an ethernet port like the D4). It will be a niche dependent on lower end bulk sales to cost-shift the industry. So you'd better hope that soccer Mom keeps buying that out-of-the-box net-friendly, Facebook-happy, iOS-linked, K-mount DSLR, because if she doesn't get that product (soon), she'll delay her purchase and the whole market will suffer more than 20 tsunamis worth of damage.
07-28-2013, 11:59 PM   #2167
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I agree with Aristophanes, but on the figures

Moreover, Samsung will win over Apple just because mac did underestimate the photography interface.

Last edited by Zygonyx; 07-29-2013 at 12:40 AM.
07-29-2013, 12:21 AM   #2168
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
You are completely lost.

The DSLR market is driven by the desire for "better" photos than a P&S. Been that way since the 1970's (well, it was a "pocket camera" and not a P&S back then).
Larger format cameras will always keep their advantage over smaller format cameras.


QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
However we are in a phase where the system camera, despite a boom, is now at a plateau in sales or a number of reasons.
True... But new photographers are born every minute.


QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
People will NOT wait for their photos to be"processed". They didn't in the film days and they won't now. The "moment" (and as a photographer we should all know what a moment is) has passed. And they ARE leaving the DSLR at home. That's the problem. This slows and stalls sales including the all important upgrade cycles.
Wait what? That's the most silly remark I've ever read on PF. In the film days, people had to have their film rolls processed. Or did I miss the era in which EVERYONE had Polaroid cameras?

Good analogy btw: Did the Polaroid camera take the SLR out of the market because of it's speedy development?


QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The entire photographic industry is being turned on its head by networking via smartphones and DSLR's don't play nice and the main Japanese manufacturers are themselves somewhat lost in the networked world because most of their major manufacturers are not part of the mobileOS, Google/Android, Facebook, Apple, etc. markets.

It's completely gone by them and they are scrambling to catch up. They sold tens of millions of DSLR's to users who may not upgrade because of the PC intermediary issue. Very few DSLR purchasers use RAW. The bulk of the market uses JPEG. Your RAW use is heavily subsidized by the soccer Moms who shoot only JPEG and buys 6x more cameras than the PP "workflow" hobbyist. If you took those purchasers out of the system camera market you'd be paying Leica prices for a K-500 and an FF would be $20,000.

And your example is correct about the DPOF in-camera to printer. You know why that exists? Because most Japanese consumers don't have home PC's. They print at local kiosks. That system was designed for them. PC market penetration in Asia is actually very low. Your current K-mount cameras have analog output via RCA jacks or HDMI precisely to play directly on TV's because most of the Asian market has no home PC. They never viewed the home as a productivity space and went straight to discrete function computing like set-top boxes, game stations, and mobile OS devices. Most of your current K-mount in-camera processing functions are there to play to a non-PC market. I would say that about 30% of all DSLR's (less the pro level stuff weighted) are sold to users who have no home PC and less than 10% of all DSLR purchasers utilize RAW. I've tested RAW software and was astounded when given general sales stats at just how few users go from, say, iPhoto, to LR or Aperture. If the system camera market is about 25 million units per year, RAW software stats are maybe 10% of that, and I am being generous.

Your camera market is made or broken by the bulk consumer. The same ones who will not wait. If they move to mobile OS's with instant gratification, your products have to as well. It's as simple as that. It's leading to a shift in how cameras are designed where bandwidth and processing and battery power and Facebook/Flickr friendliness will determine the size of sensor and price point. The "pro" level and FF stuff will be so resource hungry it will be priced very high and stay there (and large enough to have an ethernet port like the D4). It will be a niche dependent on lower end bulk sales to cost-shift the industry. So you'd better hope that soccer Mom keeps buying that out-of-the-box net-friendly, Facebook-happy, iOS-linked, K-mount DSLR, because if she doesn't get that product (soon), she'll delay her purchase and the whole market will suffer more than 20 tsunamis worth of damage.
You have to try to accept that there is different cultures and people in the world. You live in some sort of country where supposedly nobody owns PC's. Fine, but I live in a country where most people have at least 4 in each houshold. I run my own server, 24/h a day. All my PC's are hooked up to it. Including the PC that monitors and controls my aquarium. I can't imagine life being limited to a greasy screen with fingerprints and 64gb of flash memory. My 280TB's aren't even large enough.

Everybody who I see buying a tablet does the same. The buy an expensive gadget. They use it for some time, but they still need the PC for all the things tablets can't do. Then suddenly, those users use the tablet for surfing internet only. Or, it ends up in a desktop drawer. There is so many brand new tablets on the second hand market here, it's not even funny.

07-29-2013, 12:28 AM   #2169
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Hi

Aristophanes
,
you have a history of trying to sound authoritative by quoting concrete percentage figures but you never give us
the source of these statistics, isn't it time you reveal these ? I am curious.

Greetings
07-29-2013, 02:06 AM   #2170
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Yes, we're all doomed. Photography is over. Going to hell in a hardcart!

I'd guess most of these conundrums will evaporate once the camera companies accept the reality: they are now simply hardware front-ends for something else which is controlled by software owned by others, usually huge media companies.

So they need to get with the software and the operating systems and whatever a user's expectations are. Folks using cameras have had to put up with operating systems which are on about the same level as Windows 3.1 and in many cases won't do modern networking. Now they won't put up with it.

All that has to change, and I'm sure it will. Which companies are going to get with it and survive, even prosper, and which ones won't? Who knows, but I'd back Canon to make a successful go of it. The smaller ones will likely have to switch to stripped down versions of Android or something similar because they'll lack the expertise and capital to develop the software and OS themselves in-house. Heck, half of them can't even manage a 99c tethering app on mobile. It's pathetic really.

From the POV of the camera companies this is a pretty sobering cultural change. They've lost control and they won't regain it. But bolting wifi and FB on to existing systems isn't the answer. It's just a Band Aid.

As for high-quality RAW and a PC-based workflow, I don't see either of those going away any time soon. The difference is they'll become optional whereas once they were harder to avoid. The size and shape of the "PC" actually used is neither here nor there. It could be a Mac Mini, a homebrew giant or a tablet/laptop. More choice to the consumer. What's not to like?

Someone who spends 5K on FF equipment and then expects to retouch their pics on a 250-buck tablet - it's not very sane really. I haven't yet met or heard of anyone who does this, in fact. It's like buying a Ferrari for the grocery run. Urban myth? If you can afford that kind of money for FF then you can likely afford a Mac Pro laptop with retina display as your RAW developer, at the least.

Last edited by mecrox; 07-29-2013 at 02:54 AM.
07-29-2013, 02:43 AM   #2171
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
I agree with Aristophanes, but on the figures

Moreover, Samsung will win over Apple just because mac did underestimate the photography interface.
You nearly had me in there, until your final sentence. Nice to find someone with a good sense of irony.
07-29-2013, 04:04 AM   #2172
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
You are completely lost.

The DSLR market is driven by the desire for "better" photos than a P&S. Been that way since the 1970's (well, it was a "pocket camera" and not a P&S back then).

However we are in a phase where the system camera, despite a boom, is now at a plateau in sales or a number of reasons.

People will NOT wait for their photos to be"processed". They didn't in the film days and they won't now. The "moment" (and as a photographer we should all know what a moment is) has passed. And they ARE leaving the DSLR at home. That's the problem. This slows and stalls sales including the all important upgrade cycles.

The entire photographic industry is being turned on its head by networking via smartphones and DSLR's don't play nice and the main Japanese manufacturers are themselves somewhat lost in the networked world because most of their major manufacturers are not part of the mobileOS, Google/Android, Facebook, Apple, etc. markets.

It's completely gone by them and they are scrambling to catch up. They sold tens of millions of DSLR's to users who may not upgrade because of the PC intermediary issue. Very few DSLR purchasers use RAW. The bulk of the market uses JPEG. Your RAW use is heavily subsidized by the soccer Moms who shoot only JPEG and buys 6x more cameras than the PP "workflow" hobbyist. If you took those purchasers out of the system camera market you'd be paying Leica prices for a K-500 and an FF would be $20,000.

And your example is correct about the DPOF in-camera to printer. You know why that exists? Because most Japanese consumers don't have home PC's. They print at local kiosks. That system was designed for them. PC market penetration in Asia is actually very low. Your current K-mount cameras have analog output via RCA jacks or HDMI precisely to play directly on TV's because most of the Asian market has no home PC. They never viewed the home as a productivity space and went straight to discrete function computing like set-top boxes, game stations, and mobile OS devices. Most of your current K-mount in-camera processing functions are there to play to a non-PC market. I would say that about 30% of all DSLR's (less the pro level stuff weighted) are sold to users who have no home PC and less than 10% of all DSLR purchasers utilize RAW. I've tested RAW software and was astounded when given general sales stats at just how few users go from, say, iPhoto, to LR or Aperture. If the system camera market is about 25 million units per year, RAW software stats are maybe 10% of that, and I am being generous.

Your camera market is made or broken by the bulk consumer. The same ones who will not wait. If they move to mobile OS's with instant gratification, your products have to as well. It's as simple as that. It's leading to a shift in how cameras are designed where bandwidth and processing and battery power and Facebook/Flickr friendliness will determine the size of sensor and price point. The "pro" level and FF stuff will be so resource hungry it will be priced very high and stay there (and large enough to have an ethernet port like the D4). It will be a niche dependent on lower end bulk sales to cost-shift the industry. So you'd better hope that soccer Mom keeps buying that out-of-the-box net-friendly, Facebook-happy, iOS-linked, K-mount DSLR, because if she doesn't get that product (soon), she'll delay her purchase and the whole market will suffer more than 20 tsunamis worth of damage.
In Asia! most of people don't own a home PC?
Are you kidding? I lived in two of Asian countries, one of them was where most of Outside world think it's desert and people are living in tents!
but I found a PC in more than 90% of houses I visited!
However most of them didn't own a DSLR )
07-29-2013, 05:16 AM - 1 Like   #2173
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
....

And your example is correct about the DPOF in-camera to printer. You know why that exists? Because most Japanese consumers don't have home PC's. They print at local kiosks. That system was designed for them. PC market penetration in Asia is actually very low. Your current K-mount cameras have analog output via RCA jacks or HDMI precisely to play directly on TV's because most of the Asian market has no home PC. They never viewed the home as a productivity space and went straight to discrete function computing like set-top boxes, game stations, and mobile OS devices. Most of your current K-mount in-camera processing functions are there to play to a non-PC market. I would say that about 30% of all DSLR's (less the pro level stuff weighted) are sold to users who have no home PC and less than 10% of all DSLR purchasers utilize RAW. I've tested RAW software and was astounded when given general sales stats at just how few users go from, say, iPhoto, to LR or Aperture. If the system camera market is about 25 million units per year, RAW software stats are maybe 10% of that, and I am being generous.

....
As of ten years ago, greater than 50% of homes in Japan had a PC and the figure is higher for Korea. Does anyone think the percentages are lower today?

I understand one of the points I think you're making -- some people use a DSLR as a glorified P&S camera and will increasingly want connectivity options on their DSLR that mimic their mobile telephones (which they sometimes use as a P&S camera).

But saying slower PC sales will hurt the DSLR market is almost like saying a warmer than normal winter in Miami is going to hurt snow blower sales there. Practically no one is going to make a camera decision based on their PC. Instead, some will make a PC decision based on their camera. That's because the camera is the creative instrument and the PC is just a supporting tool.
07-29-2013, 05:31 AM   #2174
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Someone who spends 5K on FF equipment and then expects to retouch their pics on a 250-buck tablet - it's not very sane really. I haven't yet met or heard of anyone who does this
I don't know anyone in the industry who owns High level equipment that does this.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
If only someone invented a DSLR that could produce JPGs without the use of a PC and print them to a printer without using a PC
And let us not forget that Canon DSLR cameras have a direct print button...
07-29-2013, 05:58 AM   #2175
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QuoteOriginally posted by mtux Quote
In Asia! most of people don't own a home PC?
Are you kidding? I lived in two of Asian countries, one of them was where most of Outside world think it's desert and people are living in tents!
but I found a PC in more than 90% of houses I visited!
However most of them didn't own a DSLR )
Japan (short stay) and Taiwan here. Sister lived in Indonesia. I've also worked and lived in South Africa.

Gartner Says Worldwide PC Shipments in the First Quarter of 2013 Drop to Lowest Levels Since Second Quarter of 2009

PC market penetration in Asia is about 20% that of North America. The majority of PC's sold in Asia and the developing world are netbook type devices and low-power desktops with last gen processing power. The consumer (home) PC market has been in steep decline since tablets took off especially in Asia as the stats demonstrate. Unlike businesses which can use tax credits via capital depreciation to overlap tech, most home users are in/out where older systems like PC's do not get replaced because there are finite, non-deductible discretionary $$'s. This is why the $0.99 app and an iPod is killing the Nintendo and Sony handhelds because most consumers have to make a rational choice between one or the other, and the cheaper one wins. That's basic household economics and applies to cameras and PC's.

The point here is cameras like FF and RAW files require processing power, large storage, bandwidth, and most of all consumer time and education to get into a "workflow". The entire sales regime of higher-end cameras like FF are dependent on all of that. They are dependent on a consumer who has "free time" to spend in front of a fairly powerful PC and get into a "workflow" complete with software like LR and Photoshop.

Does that sound like fun? I know a lot of hobbies imitate work (woodworking, auto detailing) but the general rule is the closer it gets to actual work the less of a market there is. Photography has long had an instant gratification element like the 1-hour mini-labso what the smartphone ha done is really repeat history. (And in case anyone wants to know, many crease ships have mini-labs, digital now and pre-digital larger vessels had full on film processing labs. Many cruise lines still hire pro photographers and do printing on the ship.)

If you look at Adobe's recent statements you'll see that the market of prosumers is actually so small as a revenue source they are willing to dump support and sales to them, or relegate them to lesser products. The market is actually not that large and sometimes a business has to abandon some customers to keep the bigger paying ones healthy. Web publishing is totally eclipsing Photoshop's raison d'etre which was pixel editing for glossy print media. Adobe is cutting out the hobbyist who may drive camera sales (the photo in Photoshop) but who competes with their paying pro base. Dump one, keep the other. Tough decision. This is part of the rift in the market where higher-end photography from FF $3,000 D800's to the large storage PC's to the subscription photo editor is now a substantial capital outlay well beyond the reach of most households. From hardware to software we are seeing the lines laid out with economic clarity and reality, yet the price of a DSLR at $400 is well within the reach of most households. TAke away all the supporting infrastructure like a decent PC and software (cheaper than ever before but STILL in a major sales decline) and there's the bulk of your camera market; as with smartphones, it's PC-free in economics. But unlike smartphones the dumb systems cameras are still dependent on a declining market. That'[s not a good place to be dependent. Requiring your camera customer to trudge back home and sit down for a couple of hours a week to process their images is....silly. That imposed structure is going to catch up to the market. It's not a desirable way for most to enjoy their photography.

Pentax and the other camera manufacturer's have had a good run lately but now the train seems to be slowing as the shift occurs towards quick networking as opposed to home office workflow. This is a consumer trend. More and more RAW processing and the cameras that sell specifically into that market look to be the equivalent of the film era home darkroom crowd which was never very large, albeit profitable. Either that or it is a pro crowd who can/will pay Adobe's subscription rates. When you look at the historical numbers for that market size, you start to realize that of the 25 million system camera purchaser per year maybe only a few million consumers therein are actually capable of adjusting their free time and money to the significant investments of RAW PP and all the associated hardware demands. It's a much smaller market than many realize and that is what leads camera development trends. Every higher-end user utterly depends on mass sales to JPEG shooting soccer Moms; our products would not be affordable without those consumers. If they want their system camera JPEG's onto the web as fast as their smartphone, then that's where manufacturer resources have to go. Those of you who disdain that are missing the point that your RAW and LR and LBA all depend on that soccer Mom. She underwrites your market.

I think Pentax wise to hold off on FF and recycle sensors (K-30 to K-50) and designs in a holding pattern. The real work ahead is getting the DSLR into the network and leaving behind the dependence on the PC. The 'connected camera' as defined by the smartphone is now deciding the fate of our future DSLR and system camera products and that's where resources have to go.

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I'm also a bit lucky because I have access to a Bloomberg terminal at work and my job is market analysis.
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