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06-03-2012, 07:44 AM   #556
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would make some sense, and the numbers can only go up

06-03-2012, 09:06 AM   #557
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I don't think Pentax releases a FF anytime soon, but with Nikon releasing the sub-$2,000 D600 the FF market is edging down into high-end APS-C prices. The K-30 has some high-end features that have never been offered on mid-range bodies. The K-5 replacement is going to have to offer something significant over the K-30 if it is going to list for 2x the price (like the K-5 did).

I don't think the Sony 24MP APS-C sensor is worth 2x the price. I do think Pentax can get 1-stop better performance out of the sensor than Sony. I also think they can get a lot more out of the 20MP Samsung sensor than what we are seeing from Samsung.

The K-30 is $850.00. What can Pentax put in the K-5 replacement to make it worth 2x the price? So what are we going to get? It is going to have to be one hell of an APS-C sensor to be worth 2x the price of the K-30.

If Pentax can take the Sony 24MP ASP-C sensor and get another stop out if it then it will be a step forward. If Pentax can take the AA filter off of it then it will be a bigger step. Is that worth 2x the price? The A77 is not expected to be updated anytime soon, so I question whether Sony has a new high end APS-C sensor ready for a fall 2012 release.

What can Pentax put in a K-5 to make it worth 2x the K-30? Is the Foveon ready for prime time? Is there something out there that we are missing?
06-03-2012, 09:12 AM   #558
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote

What can Pentax put in a K-5 to make it worth 2x the K-30? Is the Foveon ready for prime time? Is there something out there that we are missing?
machine it out of billet aluminium. up the video features... add an oled evf overlay to the pentaprism and add focus peaking and live view through the viewfinder and an articulated (possibly touch screen) oled display?
06-03-2012, 09:30 AM   #559
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QuoteOriginally posted by D0n Quote
machine it out of billet aluminium. up the video features... add an oled evf overlay to the pentaprism and add focus peaking and live view through the viewfinder and an articulated (possibly touch screen) oled display?
I'm not sure about a touch screen. Useful for selecting focus point, but not much else. The k-5 has so many buttons I don't think that a touch screen is nessisarry.

06-03-2012, 09:36 AM   #560
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I don't think Pentax releases a FF anytime soon, but with Nikon releasing the sub-$2,000 D600 the FF market is edging down into high-end APS-C prices. The K-30 has some high-end features that have never been offered on mid-range bodies. The K-5 replacement is going to have to offer something significant over the K-30 if it is going to list for 2x the price (like the K-5 did).
... and only FF makes sense in that regard.
06-03-2012, 09:39 AM   #561
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QuoteOriginally posted by parsons Quote
I'm not sure about a touch screen. Useful for selecting focus point, but not much else. The k-5 has so many buttons I don't think that a touch screen is nessisarry.
open your mind to the possibilities...
here's three you did not think of:
1) touch screen spot metering
2) touch sliders for aperture, shutter, and iso in manual mode... (also user defined effects buttons).
3) Shot A & B programming where you can pre-set up exposure & focus setting for two shots then transition between Shot a to shot b (and back if desired) controlled by the screen. Perfect for multi exposures, focus bracketing and video shooting...
06-03-2012, 09:58 AM   #562
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QuoteOriginally posted by D0n Quote
open your mind to the possibilities...
here's three you did not think of:
1) touch screen spot metering
2) touch sliders for aperture, shutter, and iso in manual mode... (also user defined effects buttons).
3) Shot A & B programming where you can pre-set up exposure & focus setting for two shots then transition between Shot a to shot b (and back if desired) controlled by the screen. Perfect for multi exposures, focus bracketing and video shooting...
I respect your creative thinking, but given the last two Pentax releases (K-01 and K-30) do you really think that they would be developing the features that you described above? Both the K-01 and the K-30 have only incremental advances over some K-5 features. I imagine that in order to hit the $1500-$1800 initial MSRP, the K-5 successor will follow that tact. Just as an example, AFAIK Pentax has yet to deliver a camera of any type with an articulating screen. PRICL must feel that they are not worth the investment at any level. What you describe above is probably an even geater investment over an articulating screen.
06-03-2012, 10:10 AM   #563
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QuoteOriginally posted by lammie200 Quote
I respect your creative thinking, but given the last two Pentax releases (K-01 and K-30) do you really think that they would be developing the features that you described above? Both the K-01 and the K-30 have only incremental advances over some K-5 features. I imagine that in order to hit the $1500-$1800 initial MSRP, the K-5 successor will follow that tact. Just as an example, AFAIK Pentax has yet to deliver a camera of any type with an articulating screen. PRICL must feel that they are not worth the investment at any level. What you describe above is probably an even geater investment over an articulating screen.
you gotta look ahead... Pentax would be wise to consider the possibilities that with 4 or even 6 k video on the horizon, video shooting and still image shooting MUST be given EQUAL and serious attention.

How Does a Still Frame From a Red Epic Video Camera Stack Up Against A Hasselblad For Headshots? | Popular Photography
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=B2EB0PTAyME#

Subaru went AWD and started building affordable pocket rockets, doing their own thing and doing it well... and found success against industry giants.
Pentax could do well, if they were to apply that logic to their r&d....

even if they apply some of those features to a new model, would be nice.


Last edited by D0n; 06-03-2012 at 10:20 AM.
06-03-2012, 10:13 AM   #564
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Maybe the MSRP will be $1200 at launch for the K3 rather than $1600 for the K5? Though I don't see how much more a APS-C K3 can offer over a K30 or K5
06-03-2012, 10:57 AM   #565
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QuoteOriginally posted by D0n Quote
you gotta look ahead...

Subaru went AWD and started building affordable pocket rockets, doing their own thing and doing it well... and found success against industry giants.
Pentax could do well, if they were to apply that logic to their r&d...
I hear what you are saying. However, given the pace that Pentax has advanced in the past two offerings, it seems like the things that you are suggesting are very far out on the horizon if they are there at all.

Subaru is a good example of success for a line of limited product offerings. Some people have compared Canon and Nikon to Toyota and Nissan (full product lines), and Pentax to Subaru. Others have called for Pentax to go head-to-head with Canon and Nikon by offering dSLR's across the entire spectrum. Personally, I don't see that as realistic. I think that Pentax sees one of its strengths as targeting specific niches (like WR and DR) and exploiting them economically. Economically from an R & D and production standpoint, as well as consumer pricing.
06-03-2012, 11:00 AM   #566
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Most Pentaxians specialize in sleeping cat photography, and the current system is fast enough (usually) for that application. You just have to live with the occasional blurred yawn or slow stretch.
Not really. I think you confused that concept with the average snap shooter and 95% of that category with the dSLR falls to Canon/Nikon.
06-03-2012, 11:02 AM   #567
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QuoteOriginally posted by lammie200 Quote
I hear what you are saying. However, given the pace that Pentax has advanced in the past two offerings, it seems like the things that you are suggesting are very far out on the horizon if they are there at all.

Subaru is a good example of success for a line of limited product offerings. Some people have compared Canon and Nikon to Toyota and Nissan (full product lines), and Pentax to Subaru. Others have called for Pentax to go head-to-head with Canon and Nikon by offering dSLR's across the entire spectrum. Personally, I don't see that as realistic. I think that Pentax sees one of its strengths as targeting specific niches (like WR and DR) and exploiting them economically. Economically from an R & D and production standpoint, as well as consumer pricing.
I think Pentax/Ricoh should be more concerned about being sustainable in the medium to long term rather than merely being larger than Canon or Nikon. Being sustainable and larger is not necessarily the same thing.
06-03-2012, 11:15 AM   #568
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I think Pentax/Ricoh should be more concerned about being sustainable in the medium to long term rather than merely being larger than Canon or Nikon. Being sustainable and larger is not necessarily the same thing.
I agree. I think that is why we have seen only incremental improvements in the K-01 and K-30 offerings. Solid products that have capitalized on previous development. Makes sense for slow sustained growth, as opposed to wild risk taking. BTW, even though the K-01 may seem like a wild risk, the guts are very K-5 like. Minimal R & D IMHO. I see the Q as more risky than anything they have done with APS-c.
06-03-2012, 11:17 AM   #569
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QuoteOriginally posted by gtl Quote
Maybe the MSRP will be $1200 at launch for the K3 rather than $1600 for the K5? Though I don't see how much more a APS-C K3 can offer over a K30 or K5
That is the big question. What features will make the K-5 replacement worth a lot more than the K-30? K-30 is a well spec'ed camera for the money, and if the new AF is that much better then it will be a great value.

The K-3 would have to have a very strong sensor since the current 16MP is very competitive even with full frames.
The K-3 would need a much better AF with smaller more accurate points. 51-AF points or a center AF point that is 1/4 the size of the current and very accurate.
2 SD card slots.
1.25x VF
SR that is faster and provides more compensation for shake.

What about eye control focus? I had an EOS3 and loved the feature, but I don't think Pentax AF technology is up to the same level that Canon was back in the 90's.
Tilting OLED screen.
Significantly improved CDAF.
Built-in WiFi?
Built-in GPS?

How about a design a system where you put the camera on a tripod in front of a test target and the camera automatically uses CDAF to calibrate PDAF and automatically adjusts for front/back focus of the lens, so I don't have to do it manually. Google has cars that drive themselves, but Pentax can't figure out how to Auto-calibrate lenses? There should be a way to do this to improve PDAF accuracy.
06-03-2012, 11:52 AM   #570
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QuoteOriginally posted by D0n Quote
you gotta look ahead... Pentax would be wise to consider the possibilities that with 4 or even 6 k video on the horizon, video shooting and still image shooting MUST be given EQUAL and serious attention.

How Does a Still Frame From a Red Epic Video Camera Stack Up Against A Hasselblad For Headshots? | Popular Photography
Fstoppers Original: Will Video Kill The Photographer? Hasselblad vs Red Epic.mp4 - YouTube

Subaru went AWD and started building affordable pocket rockets, doing their own thing and doing it well... and found success against industry giants.
Pentax could do well, if they were to apply that logic to their r&d....

even if they apply some of those features to a new model, would be nice.
I like your analogy.

Its always easier to look back and detect when a trend happened, but not so easy to detect one that's happening right in front of us. (Looking back on it - Sony's NEX line was, and is a break-through model line - but i think they are having trouble with follow-thru on it, those dang lenses)

It seems like many camera manufacturers have been relying on Sony to build new generation sensors, and then they in lockstep would incorporate them into their new generation cameras to differentiate them from older cameras.

The Sony sensor Division must plan their new sensor designs to make them appealing to camera manufacturers to offer in their next generation cameras. The problem with the aps to FF sensor step, is that it is so large in terms of expense, in terms of how many people need such a camera, that it makes it difficult for companies like Pentax and Fuji to make such a step.

My prediction: Camera mfrs can no longer rely on new sensor designs to differentiate their camera body products. With desirable aps sensors like the Sony 16mp at almost commodity prices, they need to develop their product niche in other ways. (Past reliance on issue of new sensors to spur new camera bodies has been a problem - Samsung's 14mp sensor for the K7 was in some ways no better than the K20's, Sony's current aps 24mp sensor is not particularly better than the 16mp sensor in dynamic range/noise)
What are the major niche camera types? Perhaps:

a. Fast focusing action cameras for sports events,
b. Outdoors, rugged, landscape type cameras, easier to pack, wildlife
c. Still/video high resolution cameras with an emphasis on video
d. Compact cameras with sensors that are a step-up from the PS experience. Viewfinders can range from none, evf or optical, but small form is important.
e. Underwater cameras
f. Very Large image cameras, e.g. MF
g. High quality rangefinder-types appealing to the pure shooter,
h. Smart phone cameras that are always there to be used,
i. P & S cameras, very portable, but generally more controls than h.

Manufacturers can generalize their product trying to appeal to the largest number of potential buyers, specialize to satisfy a reliable and discerning base, and/or make a variety of products to serve more than one niche type.

You don't have to make everyone happy with your cameras, just enough to keep the company in business

Pentax is obviously doing b,c, d, f and i.

So when it comes down to individual features, i suppose a mfr chooses the ones for the niche they are trying to appeal to, keeping in mind a cost target per camera and a ROI. Does one builtd an articulated LCD for an outdoors camera thats destined for Antartica? probably not, but it sure would be nice on that compact camera.

Its a tough business to be in, thats for sure.

Last edited by philbaum; 06-03-2012 at 12:02 PM.
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