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09-04-2012, 02:39 PM   #796
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QuoteOriginally posted by fejker Quote
but Canon and Nikon on the new models are a couple of years ahead (at least on the FF bodies).
They're also >3x more expensive.

09-04-2012, 02:42 PM   #797
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QuoteOriginally posted by LamyTax Quote
They're also >3x more expensive.
Nobody said they weren't. And why can't Pentax be ... if they're selling the 645D at 10k , why couldn't they sell a FF for around 2k . Oh right, the cost of manufacturing vs profit argument again. Totally forgot about that one.
09-04-2012, 02:47 PM   #798
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QuoteOriginally posted by fejker Quote
...I picked up my K-7 and couldn't believe how I was even able to compose shots through that little dark viewfinder ...
While I can't comment on the K-7 viewfinder(I'm assuming it is the same as the K-5 correct?). then seems to me someone calculated that it was 10% smaller than the D800 FF.

That being said what FF are you comparing with the K-7?
09-04-2012, 02:52 PM   #799
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
While I can't comment on the K-7 viewfinder(I'm assuming it is the same as the K-5 correct?). then seems to me someone calculated that it was 10% smaller than the D800 FF.

That being said what FF are you comparing with the K-7?
I have the cameras here side by side (Nikon D800 and Pentax K-7) and the difference, when you look through each, is day vs night. Pentax has the 35ltd attached and the Nikon has the 50/1.4 attached.

09-04-2012, 02:58 PM   #800
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QuoteOriginally posted by fejker Quote
Nobody said they weren't. And why can't Pentax be ... if they're selling the 645D at 10k , why couldn't they sell a FF for around 2k . Oh right, the cost of manufacturing vs profit argument again. Totally forgot about that one.
Not at all. They could have developed one by now, if Hoya hadn't pulled the plug on R&D.
09-04-2012, 03:54 PM   #801
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QuoteOriginally posted by LamyTax Quote
But really, FF doesn't have much of an edge. You need very good glass these days to see the difference.
That would depend on final output and size. I still shoot a ton of B&W with my Contax 645. Almost all my large prints come from this camera. The larger formats will always enlarge better and print cleaner. For the vast majority of Pentax users printing is not an issue. For this group kit lenses will exceed what they need.

APS-C actually needs better glass to match the results of larger formats. This is one of the things that Olympus has stressed with the new M4/3 lenses like the 12mm, 45mm & 75mm. Olympus knows that its images will be enlarged 2x as much to make an 8x10 print as a 135mm image and its lenses have to have the resolving power to handle that enlargement. The smaller formats are also often pushed to achieve this at wider apertures. I am constantly shooting my K-5 at F/2 through F/4.0 so I need faster glass that is sharper at wider apertures than what I need on my 645. I typically shoot at F/4 through F/8 with the 645.

Bigger formats are more demanding of glass when it comes to edge performance and sheer size, but when it comes to sharpness and speed smaller formats require higher quality glass (sharper at wider apertures) to match the performance of larger formats. I'll print 75+/- 13"x19" B&W prints a month on my Canon 9500 MKII. Even at that relatively small size cheap glass shows up pretty quickly. What is acceptable softness for web output or even 8x10" prints looks like smeared Vaseline when you get to even medium sized prints.
09-04-2012, 05:26 PM   #802
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QuoteOriginally posted by glennbp Quote
not the least of which is the glass necessary to take advantage of FF
Personally, I like cheaper, faster, smaller, lighter lenses that are required to take the same picture in FF that I now take with APS-C.
09-04-2012, 06:47 PM - 1 Like   #803
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
That would depend on final output and size. I still shoot a ton of B&W with my Contax 645. Almost all my large prints come from this camera. The larger formats will always enlarge better and print cleaner. For the vast majority of Pentax users printing is not an issue. For this group kit lenses will exceed what they need.

APS-C actually needs better glass to match the results of larger formats. This is one of the things that Olympus has stressed with the new M4/3 lenses like the 12mm, 45mm & 75mm. Olympus knows that its images will be enlarged 2x as much to make an 8x10 print as a 135mm image and its lenses have to have the resolving power to handle that enlargement. The smaller formats are also often pushed to achieve this at wider apertures. I am constantly shooting my K-5 at F/2 through F/4.0 so I need faster glass that is sharper at wider apertures than what I need on my 645. I typically shoot at F/4 through F/8 with the 645.

Bigger formats are more demanding of glass when it comes to edge performance and sheer size, but when it comes to sharpness and speed smaller formats require higher quality glass (sharper at wider apertures) to match the performance of larger formats. I'll print 75+/- 13"x19" B&W prints a month on my Canon 9500 MKII. Even at that relatively small size cheap glass shows up pretty quickly. What is acceptable softness for web output or even 8x10" prints looks like smeared Vaseline when you get to even medium sized prints.
You look to much into it. You can have perfectly beautiful large prints with a K5 18-55 kit combo for example. If your picture is awesome it'll look awesome on any but the most insanely large prints..and even then. All this "high res is a necessity for large print" talk is out of control. It is not a necessity. Art viewers dont care. I've been in tons of photography exhibitions. The best photos are most of the times not the sharpest. In the end, it really doesnt matter. Subject matter

09-04-2012, 06:54 PM   #804
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnLegrand Quote
You can have perfectly beautiful large prints with a K5 18-55 kit combo for example.
Out of curiosity - just so we're talking about the same thing - what do you describe as 'large'?
09-04-2012, 11:01 PM   #805
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QuoteOriginally posted by glanglois Quote
Interesting comparison I don't have data to make:

* Percentage of Pentax users who are unwilling and/or unable to pay close to MSRP

* Percentage of Pentax users who want FF

* Percentage of Pentax users who fall into both categories.

Wild guess: Pentax introduces FF and 75% of the FF unruly and vocal mob supporters will wait until the price drops considerably. I suspect that Pentax would see its DSLR revenues perform a dead cat bounce. I suspect (again) that the natural progression for a majority many is "I need FF and will wait for it." ===> "It's here but too expensive." ===> "Price is going down but not there yet - hurry!" ===> "Drat. Features are getting old. Better wait for the really good FF."

I'm often wrong so please put down and step away from the pitchforks .....

This post is right on the money!


I thought of doing a poll exactly like this one, but don't know how to get around doing it.
A "Put your money where your mouth is" poll.

Those who fail to do as they voted will be called out, when a FF eventually comes (real soon ) .
Of course, we will then get the 'escape clauses' from such folks like : "too expensive"; "not comparable to Canikon offerings"; "my ancient istD still take the best photos"; let them sort out the bugs (in 2yrs time....)" ; etc

This is the downside of being a value for money brand.
09-05-2012, 12:35 AM   #806
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Nicely said!
09-05-2012, 01:22 AM   #807
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Moaning is to be expected, as is a lack of action

Very well put. Just like all the moaning about the 645D: of all those carrying on about it, who actually bought one?



QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
This post is right on the money!


I thought of doing a poll exactly like this one, but don't know how to get around doing it.
A "Put your money where your mouth is" poll.

Those who fail to do as they voted will be called out, when a FF eventually comes (real soon ) .
Of course, we will then get the 'escape clauses' from such folks like : "too expensive"; "not comparable to Canikon offerings"; "my ancient istD still take the best photos"; let them sort out the bugs (in 2yrs time....)" ; etc

This is the downside of being a value for money brand.
09-05-2012, 03:02 AM   #808
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QuoteOriginally posted by fejker Quote
I have the cameras here side by side (Nikon D800 and Pentax K-7) and the difference, when you look through each, is day vs night. Pentax has the 35ltd attached and the Nikon has the 50/1.4 attached.
Since viewfinder performance is relative to a lens' wide open performance, I'm thinking a a 1.4 lens on the Pentax would make a significant difference. That being said, what can you say about the visible FOV of the VF? Can you tell the difference?
09-05-2012, 06:00 AM   #809
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An updated APS-C sensor. 24 MP and no new lenses to resolve all that detail. At the same time the Nikon D600 has become much more than a rumor, FF, 24 MP and a much more complete lens lineup, Nikon autofocus, ... If the D600 has a smaller footprint than the other fullframe cameras from Nikon and Canon, I have a couple lenses and a K5 for sale. Let's see whether one of the nine announcements - or whatever it will be - mention something interesting.
09-05-2012, 06:23 AM   #810
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Zapp : that's what is continuously happening, and what will strongly develop if no FF comes in the green catalog ...

A good example to show to the No-need-Pentax-FF posters.

Pentax :
- has left the chance to issuing the first digital FF around 2001, due to Phillips' troubles,
- has probabbly left the chance to issuing the first digital FF mirror-less, as Sony is said to work on it (but it wouldn't take more than a few months to buid one on the K-01 principles),
- has to hurry issuing a digital FF reflex to stop bleeding against new Canikon cheap 2K FF lines, that will make 1,5K APS-C high-end SLR a more vulnerable market segment,
- has to the least to clarify it's strategic positionning in the photography business : no more compact cameras ?/! ; new X5 bridge !/? ; future of 645D ?/! ; and so on...

In this respect, i think keeping the public's unknown RICOH label for high-end compacts as well as GRX system is an other major marketing failure.

Last edited by Zygonyx; 09-05-2012 at 06:55 AM.
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