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09-14-2012, 11:30 PM   #961
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Hmm. Why not just use a weak AA filter?

I mean if the older Pentax DSLRs had them it should work with the K5 no?

09-15-2012, 06:57 AM   #962
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If moire can be detected and suppressed in RAW editors, it must be possible to detect it in the camera. If moire is detected, perhaps the camera could attempt to compensate by rotating the sensor; if that fails, it could alert the user somehow.
09-15-2012, 08:47 AM   #963
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
The scores are very, very close to each other and some differences may be just due to measurement tolerances. For instance, the D800 has higher DR than the D800E but I'm sure that the difference is not real. Even if the other differences are real and due to the AA filter, they are definitely inconsequential in terms for making a real world difference for image quality.
If those scores are "very very close" to each other, then... why bother taking the AA filter out, which, aside from delivering almost the same performance, costs more? To sell more units through marketing and make people believe they're like worlds apart?
09-16-2012, 07:21 PM   #964
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The new Fuji 35mm has been tested by Lenstip.com and at F/4 hits 66 lpmm in the center. The Pentax 31mm LTD hits 53-53 lpmm at F/5.6. I would love to see the 31mm tested on the new Fuji to see how the resolution compares. I am sure the 35mm is a very fine lens, but I'm pretty sure the big difference we are seeing is due to the lack of AA filter on the Fuji.

When Fuji introduced the XP1 they had several large A3+ prints present at the release for the media to look at. They were comparing it to the FF Canon 5DII. Without the AA filter the XP1 captures enough detail to be enlarged and compete with the larger, higher resolution 5DII sensor w/AA filter. Looking at the DPR noise graphs the XP1 also out performs the K-5 through the range and is the new low light king of APS-C.

I think a 24MP APS-C without the AA filter will easily compete with full frame bodies which have AA filters. The issues with morie don't occur in all images. You have to have certain conditions and certain subjects that are prone to the problem. You have to have a very sharp lens on a 24MP APS-C sensor for morie to be an issue. Wide apertures probably wont have a problem and really small apertures will be aided by diffraction. So not only do you have to have a subject where the potential for morie exists. You have to have a lens capable resolving enough detail for morie to be an issue, and you have to be shooting at aperture that is sharp enough to cause the problem. With a 24MP APS-C sensor there will be a lot of glass that is the limiting factor and will act as an AA filter. I would be surprised if a DA* 55mm could resolve enough detail at F/1.4 on a 24MP APS-C sensor for morie to be an issue.

09-16-2012, 07:27 PM   #965
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
By the way, D800E has better low-light ISO and a bit better colour deptht han D800 in test of sensors .
I'm thinking that would be the result of the added detail brought about by the lack of AA filter on the E. Though I'm not really convinced that it translates to something measurable by the human eye given that noise can be swayed with image focus.
09-17-2012, 06:44 AM   #966
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
I'm thinking that would be the result of the added detail brought about by the lack of AA filter on the E. Though I'm not really convinced that it translates to something measurable by the human eye given that noise can be swayed with image focus.
All of the reviews of the Fuji XP-1 comment on the amazing resolution of the 16MP APS-C sensor w/o AA filter.

There are several points to be made here. Firstly, the X-Pro1 shows visibly higher resolution in this chart test than a conventional 16MP Bayer-type camera such as the Nikon D7000, or even the Sony NEX-5N (which has a particularly weak AA filter). In fact, in terms of resolution it's very close indeed to the 24MP Sony NEX-7 or the Sigma SD1, which uses a 15MP Foveon X3 sensor to record full colour information at every pixel, and therefore (like the X-Pro1) uses no AA filter.

The 35mm F/1.4 peaked at 66 lpmm on Lenstip.com tests where the 31mm peaks at 53 lpmm. That is a pretty significant difference for people who print larger sizes. For Facebook or web based images there will be no difference, but for people looking to print and compete with larger formats the difference will be important.
09-17-2012, 07:46 AM   #967
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It appears as of now that the FF battle (at least at entry level) is going to be between the Nikon D600, Canon 6D, and the Sony a99. All of these cameras are already in production and in the hands of testers around the world. Pentax really needs to step up to the plate with a FF (K-3?) if it wants to maintain it's competetive standing in the marketplace. As good as many of the APS-C cameras are, I can see a day coming in the somewhat distant future where APS-C sensors are relegated to P&S cameras and ALL SLR's will have FF. There will be no reason not for this to happen. It may take years, but I believe that is the photographic future.
09-17-2012, 08:08 AM   #968
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QuoteOriginally posted by glennbp Quote
It appears as of now that the FF battle (at least at entry level) is going to be between the Nikon D600, Canon 6D, and the Sony a99. All of these cameras are already in production and in the hands of testers around the world. Pentax really needs to step up to the plate with a FF (K-3?) if it wants to maintain it's competetive standing in the marketplace. As good as many of the APS-C cameras are, I can see a day coming in the somewhat distant future where APS-C sensors are relegated to P&S cameras and ALL SLR's will have FF. There will be no reason not for this to happen. It may take years, but I believe that is the photographic future.
APS-C will never be regulated to P&S simply because you can't shrink the glass down small enough to make that a viable option. Yes, you can make primes very small in certain focal lengths, but how many P&S-ers want prime lenses. They want super zooms and that is an issue. Look at lenses for the NEX series. They are bigger than the body.

A99 is a completely different camera than the D600 and 6D. The A99 is targeting a different buyer.

Since neither Canon nor Nikon announced replacements for their APS-C flagship bodies, don't expect Pentax to announce its K-3. The warmed over K-5 is a good move by Pentax at this time. The K-5 still holds its own against the D300s and the 7D in many ways. Until Pentax knows what Canon and Nikon are going to do there is no reason to replace it . Hopefully Pentax will continue to refine its AF and give a K-3 that stands out in the market as a class leasing APS-C camera.

09-17-2012, 08:31 AM   #969
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
APS-C will never be regulated to P&S simply because you can't shrink the glass down small enough to make that a viable option. Yes, you can make primes very small in certain focal lengths, but how many P&S-ers want prime lenses. They want super zooms and that is an issue. Look at lenses for the NEX series. They are bigger than the body.

A99 is a completely different camera than the D600 and 6D. The A99 is targeting a different buyer.

Since neither Canon nor Nikon announced replacements for their APS-C flagship bodies, don't expect Pentax to announce its K-3. The warmed over K-5 is a good move by Pentax at this time. The K-5 still holds its own against the D300s and the 7D in many ways. Until Pentax knows what Canon and Nikon are going to do there is no reason to replace it . Hopefully Pentax will continue to refine its AF and give a K-3 that stands out in the market as a class leasing APS-C camera.
Think he meant more mirrorless cams or cameras like Canon's G1x. Even so, Sony just released a fairly tiny pancake zoom for NEX, and Samsung also has a relatively small collapsible zoom for its APS-C sized NX. things mirrorless clearances allow vs. SLR

The A99 is higher-spec camera than the 6D or D600, but it's definitely aimed at some of the same market. As a higher-tech alternative to DSLRs with a FF unique swivel screen but similar ergonomics.

The D300s and 7D are both considered old cameras whose product tiers have both just been replaced by FF. Nikon's APS-C will end at the D7000 level and Canon's 60D level. APS-C has taken a step back with the big two, effectively pushing Pentax back along with it. with the lowest APS-C MP to boot. Nikon has graduated to 24 and Canon is still at 18 I know that's relative to image quality, but it matters very much in marketing and brand equity.
09-17-2012, 09:28 AM - 1 Like   #970
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
The A99 is higher-spec camera than the 6D or D600, but it's definitely aimed at some of the same market. As a higher-tech alternative to DSLRs with a FF unique swivel screen but similar ergonomics.
Did you see all of the video accessories introduced with the A99, which was also introduced along side other Sony HD video cameras? Sony has a big following in the HD Video world. People are have been using EVFs for years. Sony is going after the HD video enthusiast (5DIII) who needs a high quality video camera capable of grabbing high quality still images. Everything about the A99 puts HD video function over still image. The A99 is not in the same market as the D600 or 6D. Both the D600 and 6D are stripped down still image tools. The A99 is a high end HD video DSLR. Anyone walking into a store to buy a FF camera who isn't sure which one they need probably has no clue what they need.

QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
The D300s and 7D are both considered old cameras whose product tiers have both just been replaced by FF. Nikon's APS-C will end at the D7000 level and Canon's 60D level. APS-C has taken a step back with the big two, effectively pushing Pentax back along with it. with the lowest APS-C MP to boot. Nikon has graduated to 24 and Canon is still at 18 I know that's relative to image quality, but it matters very much in marketing and brand equity.
Can you post the official announcement by Canon or Nikon that the D300 and 7D lines are dead or that the D600 and 6D are replacements? If that were true we would see the 7D AF in the new 6D. The 6D is a lower spec body than the 7D in almost every way except the sensor. Canon did not put the FF sensor in the 7D body, they put it in a 60D body which leaves room for the 7D in the line-up. The 7D has been a very good seller for Canon and a lot of FF users have a 7D as a second body as it gives them the 1.6x advantage without carrying more lenses. Nikon is a different story as the D400 is harder to fit into the line up. But we could see a D400 with D4 AF and very high build quality that could sell against the stripped down D600. There are a lot of photo journalists, wildlife, sports who like the extra reach of APS-C and need the AF of a pro-body, but who only need web grade image quality. APS-C can easily deliver web grade quality. Most news is now delivered via video or web.

2012 was the year of the FF body. Next spring we will see the next round of APS-C bodies announced. I would be shocked if we don't see a K-3 with Sony 24MP APS-C sensor (no AA filter) and 21-point AF by February. We probably wont see a K-1 FF until fall 2013.
09-17-2012, 10:07 AM   #971
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
2012 was the year of the FF body. Next spring we will see the next round of APS-C bodies announced. I would be shocked if we don't see a K-3 with Sony 24MP APS-C sensor (no AA filter) and 21-point AF by February. We probably wont see a K-1 FF until fall 2013.
Yes, I meant Sony was attacking the FF market (5DIII) in general, not the 6D600 specifically.

I wasnt doubting APS-C as a potentially pro format, but the 'pro' APS-C DSLR has lost some of its raison d'Ítre. As you hinted, the D7000 was close enough in build quality and features of the D300 to not require a new APS-C D400. I suspect Canon will do the same next year and upgrade the 70D's AF system and build similarly bringing that line up some, but not to the full level of the 7D.

Meanwhile, Mirrorless cameras will get more and more professional as EVF technology develops, image quality wise they've already reached the APS-C SLR.

I'm sure some pros appreciated the added reach of APS-H as well but Canon mothballed it as they likely saw it as a limitation, not a feature.

Last edited by illdefined; 09-17-2012 at 10:20 AM.
09-17-2012, 10:59 AM   #972
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
Yes, I meant Sony was attacking the FF market (5DIII) in general, not the 6D600 specifically.

I wasnt doubting APS-C as a potentially pro format, but the 'pro' APS-C DSLR has lost some of its raison d'Ítre. As you hinted, the D7000 was close enough in build quality and features of the D300 to not require a new APS-C D400. I suspect Canon will do the same next year and upgrade the 70D's AF system and build similarly bringing that line up some, but not to the full level of the 7D.

Meanwhile, Mirrorless cameras will get more and more professional as EVF technology develops, image quality wise they've already reached the APS-C SLR.

I'm sure some pros appreciated the added reach of APS-H as well but Canon mothballed it as they likely saw it as a limitation, not a feature.
I would guess that Canon would kill the 70D line before they'd kill the 7D line. I guess we'll see.
09-17-2012, 11:09 AM   #973
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I would guess that Canon would kill the 70D line before they'd kill the 7D line. I guess we'll see.
Maybe, but I doubt it. I'd think the strong video following the 7D turned out to have would appreciate the 60D's swivel screen far more than the 7D's tank-like build and AF system. not to mention size. The 7D is a BIG camera (bigger than a 5D) and I don't think APS-C is worth that weight anymore, nope, not after this year.

It's not just because of FF either, Canon needs an answer for the GH3.

Last edited by illdefined; 09-17-2012 at 01:47 PM.
09-17-2012, 05:55 PM   #974
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More mega pixels more power?
09-27-2012, 11:53 AM   #975
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Olympus says that Sony is making the 16MP 4/3 sensor in the OM-D. That would scale to an APS-C sensor of almost 27MP instead of the 24MP used in the NEX-7. If this is the next generation of sensor it might explain why we are seeing the 24MP going into Nikon's lower tier bodies.

Maybe the K-3 will have a 27MP sensor.
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