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03-21-2013, 09:01 AM   #1291
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Canonists called APS-H - no wide-angle, no tele.
Strange, as technically the APS-H should be better at wide angle then APS-C. And better at tele then FF. Glass is half empty, or full?

I seriously still like the idea. It would have been much less hassle for Pentax to implement that sensor size. I think it could have just been mounted in an existing body, like the K5. In contrast to FF there would be no need to develope a entirely new body, solve SR problem and develope a whole new range of lenses.


QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
And...I'm sorry - nobody will produce APS-H sensor for Pentax...
How do you know that?

LOL! Who says Pentax can't get a APS-H sized sensor cut from the Nokia 808-sensor wafer? (That would be 1080mp.)

03-21-2013, 09:49 AM   #1292
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Can you please identify who sells such a sensor?
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
As for DA lenses - some of DA lenses can't cover APS-H at all.

And...I'm sorry - nobody will produce APS-H sensor for Pentax...
Well some lenses still need the DX format and thus there is still a need for the wide-angle to normal in zooms and primes.


As for the sensor: If Pentax can order and pay for it then there is someone to produce it. That is a matter off finance and productionsvolume.


When on APS-H the following lenses can work and give great Image Quality:
  • FA-Ltd-series 31mm, 43mm and 77mm.
  • DA-Ltd-series 40mm and 70mm.
  • DA-series 35mm and 50mm.
  • Macro D-FA 100mm.
  • DA*-series 200mm, 300mm and 60-250mm.
  • DA 560mm/f5.6.
Then you already have a nice set off lenses. Still needing wide-angle zoom, normal zoom and a few primes. When some off these lenses perform better on APS-H then on Full Frame then you have your biggest argument.
03-21-2013, 09:58 AM   #1293
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Strange, as technically the APS-H should be better at wide angle then APS-C. And better at tele then FF. Glass is half empty, or full?
10-22 is not 10-22. it's strange 13-28.

Canon's APS-C is 1.6x. It gives advantage in tele range.

That's why APS-H can't offer nor wide-angle like FF, neither long tele like APS-C.
03-21-2013, 10:19 AM   #1294
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
10-22 is not 10-22. it's strange 13-28.
But 10-22 isn't 10-22 on APS-C either, it's a strange 15-33. What's your point?

As expected, APS-H is better at wide angle then APS-C.

03-21-2013, 10:45 AM   #1295
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
As for the sensor: If Pentax can order and pay for it then there is someone to produce it. That is a matter off finance and productionsvolume.
You left off a critical step before "produce"... design. Sure, Canon has one but would they sell it and would be it be useful to Pentax? By all accounts, Canon has no interest in selling sensors to anyone else and what they have today is technically obsolete in most people's opinion.

As for designing a new sensor for Pentax... there's no history to suggest someone would do it but if they did, the potential volume is so small (because Pentax is so small) that the development cost charged to Pentax would outweigh any justification for doing so. That's unless you and many others might be willing to pay $5000 for an APS-H camera.
03-21-2013, 12:33 PM   #1296
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
My startpoint would be the wafer that delivers the sensor for the D600 and that performce better then the sensor in the K-5.

Maybe it wouldn't be cheaper then a FF sensor, but maybe that isn't what makes the FF camera's so expensive. It's also about building a system and when more current lenses can perform to their quality on a smaller sensor then a FF then that is where you win the most. I'm thinking off DA40mm, DA70mm, DA*60-250mm. Maybe even the FA series 31mm/43mm/77mm can perform better on a smaller sensor then FF and would make a lot off users very happy.

What about the new DA560mm/f5.6? Would that lens gain IQ from an APS-H over a FF sensor?
But why a custom made, low volume (thus expensive) APS-H sensor when there are FF sensors on the market?
It's risky to bet your future on such an odd format. That's exactly what Olympus did, with the 4/3: going with a slightly smaller sensor, which wasn't cheaper. They also tried to compensate through sheer optical quality. Guess what - 4/3 is dead now.
I would like a K-5 IIs-level (price and features) APS-H (with an excellent sensor) camera, if possible; but I'm afraid it's not. I believe it would rather compete with the entry level FFs, not much cheaper yet "inferior".

No, the DA 560mm (nor any other lens) will not gain any IQ by cropping it in camera (by using a smaller sensor), versus using the full image circle or cropping it in post.
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Strange, as technically the APS-H should be better at wide angle then APS-C. And better at tele then FF. Glass is half empty, or full?
No, it won't be better at tele than FF - since you can crop the FF to APS-H (or smaller) sizes, if you wish.
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
LOL! Who says Pentax can't get a APS-H sized sensor cut from the Nokia 808-sensor wafer? (That would be 1080mp.)
If they would do that, they will get a non-functional piece of a wafer with N Nokia 808 sensors You can't just cut the wafer as you wish.
03-21-2013, 12:52 PM - 1 Like   #1297
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A new and innovative product has to be able to be sold at a good market price, as well as desirable to the client group - even for niche products. It is not enough to be 'different' - Pentax's marketing catch phrase plays on this being a desirable trait, but I see APS-H as being way too left of centre for it to be successful with any group of photographers (low end, enthusiasts or pros).
03-21-2013, 01:09 PM   #1298
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Still at it huh?

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
No, it won't be better at tele than FF - since you can crop the FF to APS-H (or smaller) sizes, if you wish.
But then the cropped FF will have less resolution. Come on, you already knew that.


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
If they would do that, they will get a non-functional piece of a wafer with N Nokia 808 sensors You can't just cut the wafer as you wish.
You don't know what "LOL!" means then?

I still like the APS-H idea, because lets face it. We could have that in this lifetime. It could be built straight into an existing body, and work on most existing DA, and all FA and DFA lenses. Whilst a full set of Pentax FF gear is so extremely far away.

And most of all: it would be different.

03-21-2013, 01:20 PM - 1 Like   #1299
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Arguing about less resolution in crops is not comparing the right thing. There's little point comparing say a 24Mp APS-H with a 24Mp FF. Given the next generation of APS-C is already 24Mp, Pentax would be shooting themselves in the foot to release a 24Mp FF camera, but a 36Mp FF - that has both promise as well as flexibility. Unless there's a 36Mp APS-H sensor available to match it, I don't see the benefit in Pentax going down that road.
03-21-2013, 01:35 PM   #1300
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Given the next generation of APS-C is already 24Mp, Pentax would be shooting themselves in the foot to release a 24Mp FF camera
Why?
There are 24MP APS-C cameras already, but there are still quite a few APS-C cameras with clearly less megapixels, like the K5 IIs. Some of the FF sensor cameras "only" have 24mp, but surely they are not useless. I for one would take a 24mp FF camera, because the photos made with a larger sensor are likely to look better, anyway, even though there are ones with 36mp sensors. I believe a new sub-$2k FF body la Canon 6D and Nikon D600, made by Pentax in the K5 style, would be a success.

Whether or not that kind of camera will ever come from Pentax is another story. Chances are they will stick with the crop sensor cameras.
03-21-2013, 01:39 PM   #1301
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
But then the cropped FF will have less resolution. Come on, you already knew that
Why? An APS-H sensor would not necessarily have a higher pixel density than a FF one.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
You don't know what "LOL!" means then?
Of course; it's "a populated place in Dordogne, Aquitaine, France" (source:Wiki).

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I still like the APS-H idea, because lets face it. We could have that in this lifetime. It could be built straight into an existing body, and work on most existing DA, and all FA and DFA lenses. Whilst a full set of Pentax FF gear is so extremely far away.
What makes you think an APS-H camera, requiring a custom sensor design could be made much sooner than a FF camera using an existing sensor, and which is already being developed?
What makes you think an APS-H camera would not require a new body?

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
And most of all: it would be different.
In a good or a bad way?
03-21-2013, 01:39 PM - 1 Like   #1302
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Arguing about less resolution in crops is not comparing the right thing. There's little point comparing say a 24Mp APS-H with a 24Mp FF. Given the next generation of APS-C is already 24Mp, Pentax would be shooting themselves in the foot to release a 24Mp FF camera, but a 36Mp FF - that has both promise as well as flexibility. Unless there's a 36Mp APS-H sensor available to match it, I don't see the benefit in Pentax going down that road.
Very true. Actually, currently there is no APS-H sensor available at all for Pentax. So we're arguing about something that doesn't even exist yet.
03-21-2013, 01:41 PM - 1 Like   #1303
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Not to mention, no chip producer woud produce APS-H only for Pentax, or at reasonable price.
Too ridiculous market-share.
03-21-2013, 01:55 PM   #1304
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They would, but not at reasonable prices; the image quality and the ability to constantly provide new, competitive sensors are uncertain - it's best to have more than one possibility. Pentax used Sony, then Samsung, now Sony again, and in the future they could add e.g. Toshiba to the "collection" - because the sensor size is "standard". OTOH, the non-"standard" 4/3 only now has access to Sony sensors (but with a much larger market share than a Pentax APS-H would have).
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Very true. Actually, currently there is no APS-H sensor available at all for Pentax. So we're arguing about something that doesn't even exist yet.
That's a show stopper, IMHO. But still, the APS-H idea will resurface from time to time, because some people just like it so much
03-21-2013, 02:08 PM   #1305
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
They would, but not at reasonable prices; the image quality and the ability to constantly provide new, competitive sensors are uncertain - it's best to have more than one possibility. Pentax used Sony, then Samsung, now Sony again, and in the future they could add e.g. Toshiba to the "collection" - because the sensor size is "standard". OTOH, the non-"standard" 4/3 only now has access to Sony sensors (but with a much larger market share than a Pentax APS-H would have).

That's a show stopper, IMHO. But still, the APS-H idea will resurface from time to time, because some people just like it so much
Well, Pentax FF is even further away then APS-H. Not the FF body itself, they may be able to produce that in the next year or 5, but a lens lineup to go with it. Actually, an expensive custom made APS-H sensor would still be cheaper then developing a complete new FF lens lineup.
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