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03-23-2013, 11:32 AM   #1366
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Clavius, shouldn't we wait and see if this is indeed a problem, and if so which lenses are affected and how?
And even it is, IMHO some restrictions in using legacy lenses with SR would be much better than being the brand who stopped halfway going FF.

03-23-2013, 11:43 AM   #1367
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Clavius, shouldn't we wait and see if this is indeed a problem, and if so which lenses are affected and how?
Without wanting to sound negative, but just being realistic and regarding the past decade: Waiting and seeing for Pentax FF is not an option.

I've always wondered why Pentax didn't go FF. And this wouldn't be just an excuse, but a terribly good reason for their reluctance.
03-23-2013, 11:47 AM   #1368
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Just went to the dpreview website and checked out their comparison charts and compared the d7100 to the d600 to the K5IIs studio comparison shots. The resolution fo the two nikons was the same. The Toshiba sensor in the D7100 seemed even a bit better than the D600 at low ISO (100,200). Noise was better with the FF 24MP sensor (D600) starting at about ISO800 and up. the K5IIs was remarkably good in comparison and better than D7100 at high ISO. Imagine what a pentax body having a sensor with same pixel pitch as K5 sensor in an APS-H size yeilding about 24MP would do -- improved resolution and equivalent or improved high ISO performance compared to K5II!
03-23-2013, 12:01 PM   #1369
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Without wanting to sound negative, but just being realistic and regarding the past decade: Waiting and seeing for Pentax FF is not an option.

I've always wondered why Pentax didn't go FF. And this wouldn't be just an excuse, but a terribly good reason for their reluctance.
Sounds more like an answer looking for a question.

03-23-2013, 12:47 PM   #1370
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Without wanting to sound negative, but just being realistic and regarding the past decade: Waiting and seeing for Pentax FF is not an option.

I've always wondered why Pentax didn't go FF. And this wouldn't be just an excuse, but a terribly good reason for their reluctance.
What is an option, then? Endless discussions about things you don't actually know if there are an issue or not? Assuming that an assumed issue cannot be fixed? That what worked for Sony can't possibly work for Pentax?

Sorry, I can't accept an endless stream of wild suppositions as "proof" that some quirky action path would be desperately required. There are other, much more plausible reasons why Pentax didn't go FF, Hoya being one of them.

Besides, Pentax was talking about FF in the recent interviews; not about APS-H. Are they clueless, and don't know what you do?
03-23-2013, 12:54 PM   #1371
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Please explain why the image circle of DA lenses is slightly bigger then the APS-C sensor demands. If it is not to accommodate the moving sensor, then what is it for? Pentax is not known to make things any bigger then they have to be.
Of course, what else?
When Minolta designed lenses back 30 years ago, they planned for sensor stabilization for their lenses right away. Smart guys, huh ?
03-23-2013, 01:44 PM   #1372
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Sensor movement in SR is negligible. It hardly needs a large image circle buffer - but we can leave that for the engineers to work out for us. I'm sure they'll be up to the challenge.

As for not waiting for the FF... there are a number of competitor FF cameras available now, at different price points, that there is no need to wait. Those Pentaxians who are satisfied with what they have in APS-C will just keep enjoying the craft instead of worrying about when FF will come for them.
03-23-2013, 03:50 PM   #1373
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QuoteOriginally posted by tram57 Quote
I think the d800 is 36 MP and in "crop mode" yeilds 16MP for use with DX lenses. The FF sensor has twice the area of an APS-C sensor, and a APS-H sensor has 50% more area than a APS-C sensor ... give or take a bit.
D800 is 15.3 MP in crop mode I believe.. I use it a lot.

I would think that Pentax, coming late to the FF party, could be in a good position to use a sensor with the same density as a 24MP APS-C for FF. That would put them ahead of the game in a major area and get instant publicity.

03-23-2013, 04:47 PM   #1374
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I don't know enough technical details about how much the sensor moves during SR, but if it really is an issue for older FF lenses' image circle, then leaving SR out of a new full frame body would make sense to me.

The biggest gaps in Pentax's FF lens line-up are also the ones which would benefit most from in-lens image stabilisation: 24-70 and 70-200 "event" zooms, where hand-holding and poor light are often combined. Fill those two gaps immediately with IS lenses and I for one could manage with wider apertures, supplementary lighting or a tripod for most of my other lenses.
03-23-2013, 04:52 PM   #1375
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sandy Hancock Quote
I don't know enough technical details about how much the sensor moves during SR, but if it really is an issue for older FF lenses' image circle, then leaving SR out of a new full frame body would make sense to me.

The biggest gaps in Pentax's FF lens line-up are also the ones which would benefit most from in-lens image stabilisation: 24-70 and 70-200 "event" zooms, where hand-holding and poor light are often combined. Fill those two gaps immediately with IS lenses and I for one could manage with wider apertures, supplementary lighting or a tripod for most of my other lenses.
You can also turn SR off.
03-23-2013, 05:22 PM   #1376
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
OK, so they come out with a 24 Mp FF, and a 24 MP APS-c and I have DA lenses... why would I go with the FF?
Personally, I think they have to offer 36+ MP in an FF just to stay in the game.
I don't know what in the world you shoot that needs more than 36 MP. Multiple times you've complained about not having enough MP. For me, I wouldn't ever need more than 12 MP APS-C or 18 MP FF. My 10 MP images from the K10D look great on billboards.

But to answer your question above, I'd choose the 24 MP FF over the 24 MP APS-C any day because the optical VF on the FF will be large and bright like the MX's. The APS-C VF will be, well, small and nearly useless like every other APS-C VF.
03-23-2013, 05:36 PM   #1377
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
You can also turn SR off.
Fair point
03-23-2013, 06:36 PM - 1 Like   #1378
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sandy Hancock Quote
I don't know enough technical details about how much the sensor moves during SR, but if it really is an issue for older FF lenses' image circle, then leaving SR out of a new full frame body would make sense to me.
How much it moves does depend on the lens being used, but I would have to say I don't really have any hard evidence but just by looking at the sensor during cleaning the SR mechanism seems to be able move no further than 3mm in any direction . Every pentax FA series lens should be able to handle that easily. When I had my FA77 on my optics testing bench several years ago I noticed that if you maintained the flange, you could probably get away with using the FA77 on a sensor the size of the one currently used in the 645D. That lens casts an unusually large imaging circle for a 35mm lens.

I am in the process of obtaining an ALPA 12 FPS* - and a few lens mount adapters. The ALPA 12 FPS allows users of medium format digital backs to use 35mm lenses - if I can get it, the FPS will allow me to provide a better analysis of how FA and DA lenses perform on a full sized medium format digital sensor.

* a very confusing and misleading name since no current medium format digital system is capable of a capture rate of 12 FPS.

Last edited by Digitalis; 03-24-2013 at 04:10 AM.
03-23-2013, 08:46 PM   #1379
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
D800 is 15.3 MP in crop mode I believe.. I use it a lot.

I would think that Pentax, coming late to the FF party, could be in a good position to use a sensor with the same density as a 24MP APS-C for FF. That would put them ahead of the game in a major area and get instant publicity.
A FF sensor with the same pixel density as a 24MP APS-C would be almost 48MP. Would be a fantastic camera but, I would guess, very expensive and more than the D800. How about something in the price range just a couple hundred more than the d7100 with 24MP but APS-H for better high ISO noise?
03-23-2013, 08:53 PM   #1380
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QuoteOriginally posted by tram57 Quote
A FF sensor with the same pixel density as a 24MP APS-C would be almost 48MP. Would be a fantastic camera but, I would guess, very expensive and more than the D800. How about something in the price range just a couple hundred more than the d7100 with 24MP but APS-H for better high ISO noise?
Actually I think it'd be 52 or 54MP.
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