K-3 speculation

**Ash** · 05-24-2011, 08:01 AM

If that were the case, there would be little need for a 24Mp APS-C camera.
I get the fact that they are going to put whatever sensor is developed and made available to them, but to Pentax it's the other stuff that should matter more: AF accuracy and performance, fixing the intermittent camera software glitches and exposure reliability between lenses and with P-TTL flash.

Balog · 05-24-2011, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by Winder

The mega pixel war is irrelevant. The only thing that matters it that the next generation of sensors produce better images over a wider ISO range.

People get too wrapped up in the number of MPs.

And people forget that the point of a company is to make a profit. If higher MP count sells cameras, then I hope they stuff the largest sensor they can get their hands on into a body. Because the more $ they make overall, they more they have to spend on R&D, improving their service etc etc. That's the real problem crippling Pentax: they don't have the money from non-dslr items (like Canon/Sony etc) to sink a ton into developing better AF etc.

Originally posted by Ash

If that were the case, there would be little need for a 24Mp APS-C camera.
I get the fact that they are going to put whatever sensor is developed and made available to them, but to Pentax it's the other stuff that should matter more: AF accuracy and performance, fixing the intermittent camera software glitches and exposure reliability between lenses and with P-TTL flash.

What matters most is whatever sells the most cameras. Because the dev time to fix all those issues you care about costs money, and if they can't grow and be competitive they'll never have the cash to give you what you want.

johnmflores · 05-24-2011, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by Winder

The mega pixel war is irrelevant. The only thing that matters it that the next generation of sensors produce better images over a wider ISO range.

People get too wrapped up in the number of MPs.

They do. And with more megapixels than before. So if Sony can deliver a 24Mp APS-C sensor that can outperform the one in the K-5 with regards to ISO, DR, and noise, I say go for it!

drougge · 05-24-2011, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by rvannatta

I think it's a little late to worry about the issues relating to the early K mount lenses. They were manufactured from 1975 to 1984. the crippled K mount has been the norm for a decade. By the time another body comes out we will be looking well beyond 25 years since any of the pre-KA lenses have been manufactured. I really think it's time to get over it.

But why should I (or anyone) care when they were made? I still use them, probably more than anything with proper metering on my camera. (Mostly not Pentax glass, so it could well be newer than that too.)

wll · 05-24-2011, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by johnmflores

They do. And with more megapixels than before. So if Sony can deliver a 24Mp APS-C sensor that can outperform the one in the K-5 with regards to ISO, DR, and noise, I say go for it!

I agree, and if Pentax engineers find the new Sony sensor is not as good, maybe they should make upgrades to the existing body and add more features. (Like Tethering, with a good tethering program, how about a couple of pro flash units ?).

I'm not to interested in a 24mp piece of cr@#.

I would, love on the other hand love for the new sensor to have increased DR and another stop or ? of usable ISO range. This would be fantastic.

It's all being worked on now I'm sure, we will see.

wll

**Rondec** · 05-24-2011, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by Ash

If that were the case, there would be little need for a 24Mp APS-C camera.
I get the fact that they are going to put whatever sensor is developed and made available to them, but to Pentax it's the other stuff that should matter more: AF accuracy and performance, fixing the intermittent camera software glitches and exposure reliability between lenses and with P-TTL flash.

I don't mind more megapixels, although you definitely get the point of diminishing returns. Anyway, the sensor development is up to Sony (and they seem to do a pretty good job with it). I think the issues really are more QC than anything else. Camera performance really is all over the place. There seem to be high rates of lens issues as well. If they just get these things in order, it would be a step in the right direction.

I'll say again, that I think they need to work more on lenses than on camera bodies right now. I feel like the K5 is a good camera body, but they need more fast lenses, both with regard to aperture and focus speed.

Blue · 05-24-2011, 11:58 AM

I am sure SanDisk and Lexar are looking forward to increased sales in 64 GH and 132 GB SDHC Extreme cards.

MaK5 · 05-24-2011, 12:21 PM

I hope Pentax can significantly improve K5's AF accuracy in the next camera. Having used several Nikon (D80/90/300/700) and Canon (450/550/50D) cameras, I have to say that K5's AF is the least accurate in both AF-S and AF-C modes.

Winder · 05-24-2011, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by Ash

If that were the case, there would be little need for a 24Mp APS-C camera.
I get the fact that they are going to put whatever sensor is developed and made available to them, but to Pentax it's the other stuff that should matter more: AF accuracy and performance, fixing the intermittent camera software glitches and exposure reliability between lenses and with P-TTL flash.

Actually increasing MP and maintaining S/N and DR will result in better IQ. Then there is the issue with how modern RAW converters process the information collected by the sensor. The more data points (photosites/pixels) the software has to work with the more accurately it can reproduce the actual scene. One of the reasons DxO is so slow is that when processing the data returned from a single photosite it samples a radius of photosites (I don't recall how many) around that photosite to isolate random noise and hot pixels.

Take the Canon 5D and the Sony A900 as examples. The 12MP 5D and the 25MP A900 have almost identical S/N ratios, but the A900 returns better images with more detail. Noise appears as smaller/finer grain in the A900 and since the RAW converter has more information to work with it can produce more accurate images.

Sony really can not afford to screw up the next sensor. They have a lot at stake.

Samsung has a new 18MP sensor.... Maybe that will be at the heart of the K-5 replacement.

RonHendriks1966 · 05-24-2011, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by Winder

Samsung has a new 18MP sensor.... Maybe that will be at the heart of the K-5 replacement.

where is that sensor?

Winder · 05-24-2011, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by RonHendriks1966

where is that sensor?

Samsung has been showing it off.

The korean company is looking to export their new CMOS technology. A couple of weeks ago there was a meeting with representatives of digital camera companies. Samsung showed them their latest generation sensor. It’s a 18MPx CMOS sensor with 4K support. One of the present representatives was from Olympus. Samsung offered them a 16MPx 4/3 version with 1080p!!!

Samsung is shopping it around. Samsung needs to sell to other companies to keep their manufacturing costs down.

Would Pentaxians get excited about a Samsung sensor? Or would a 24MP Sony be more popular.

johnmflores · 05-24-2011, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by Winder

Samsung has been showing it off.

The korean company is looking to export their new CMOS technology. A couple of weeks ago there was a meeting with representatives of digital camera companies. Samsung showed them their latest generation sensor. It’s a 18MPx CMOS sensor with 4K support. One of the present representatives was from Olympus. Samsung offered them a 16MPx 4/3 version with 1080p!!!

Samsung is shopping it around. Samsung needs to sell to other companies to keep their manufacturing costs down.

Would Pentaxians get excited about a Samsung sensor? Or would a 24MP Sony be more popular.

4k support? For real? Isn't that Red territory????

RonHendriks1966 · 05-24-2011, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by Winder

Samsung is shopping it around. Samsung needs to sell to other companies to keep their manufacturing costs down.

Would Pentaxians get excited about a Samsung sensor? Or would a 24MP Sony be more popular.

well developingcosts is the problem these days. They still use the sensor from K20D/K-7 in their current NX camera with some tweaking. It was a pitty that the Pentax camera's didn't make the sellingnumbers needed for upgrading.

I still like the colours of the K20D/K-7 over the Sonysensor, but it has to get close in IQ with hi iso.

Winder · 05-24-2011, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by johnmflores

4k support? For real? Isn't that Red territory????

I'm not sure I buy the part about 4K support. This was from an Olympus forum, but everyone know Olympus is tired of waiting on Panasonic and is looking for a new supplier. Panasonic "can" make good sensors (see GH1), but they can never seem to get very high yields, and have trouble making enough sensors to meet demand.

I don't see the value of 4K support. To my knowledge there is no real 4K industry standard and the bandwidth requirement is huge. IF you did shoot in 4K where do you show your videos?

Samsung has been investing a lot into their sensor development. The Samsung sensor in the K20 was very good at the time it was introduced, but it seems Samsung took some time off from sensor development with the K-7. The NX20 is rumored to be out this year (the NX11 will have s short market life) and Samsung needs to have a sensor that is competitive. Right now the NEX system is kicking butt in the mirror-less segment.. I actually like the size and feel of the NX10. It is a first generation camera and it has the first generation bugs. I am hoping Pentax produces something like the NX10 series or the follow the Fuji x100.

uccemebug · 05-24-2011, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Winder

The NX20 is rumored to be out this year (the NX11 will have s short market life)

That is short!

Originally posted by Winder

I am hoping Pentax produces something like the NX10 series

The NX series is quite good and worth bearing in mind. I wonder if Pentax could stake out a space making something with a bit more W90 DNA in there.

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05-24-2011, 08:01 AM	#166
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	If that were the case, there would be little need for a 24Mp APS-C camera. I get the fact that they are going to put whatever sensor is developed and made available to them, but to Pentax it's the other stuff that should matter more: AF accuracy and performance, fixing the intermittent camera software glitches and exposure reliability between lenses and with P-TTL flash.

05-24-2011, 08:29 AM	#167
Balog Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Bothell, WA Posts: 103	Originally posted by Winder The mega pixel war is irrelevant. The only thing that matters it that the next generation of sensors produce better images over a wider ISO range. People get too wrapped up in the number of MPs. And people forget that the point of a company is to make a profit. If higher MP count sells cameras, then I hope they stuff the largest sensor they can get their hands on into a body. Because the more $ they make overall, they more they have to spend on R&D, improving their service etc etc. That's the real problem crippling Pentax: they don't have the money from non-dslr items (like Canon/Sony etc) to sink a ton into developing better AF etc. Originally posted by Ash If that were the case, there would be little need for a 24Mp APS-C camera. I get the fact that they are going to put whatever sensor is developed and made available to them, but to Pentax it's the other stuff that should matter more: AF accuracy and performance, fixing the intermittent camera software glitches and exposure reliability between lenses and with P-TTL flash. What matters most is whatever sells the most cameras. Because the dev time to fix all those issues you care about costs money, and if they can't grow and be competitive they'll never have the cash to give you what you want.

05-24-2011, 08:33 AM	#168
johnmflores Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Somerville, NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,361	Originally posted by Winder The mega pixel war is irrelevant. The only thing that matters it that the next generation of sensors produce better images over a wider ISO range. People get too wrapped up in the number of MPs. They do. And with more megapixels than before. So if Sony can deliver a 24Mp APS-C sensor that can outperform the one in the K-5 with regards to ISO, DR, and noise, I say go for it!

05-24-2011, 09:24 AM	#169
drougge Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Malmö Photos: Gallery Posts: 787	Originally posted by rvannatta I think it's a little late to worry about the issues relating to the early K mount lenses. They were manufactured from 1975 to 1984. the crippled K mount has been the norm for a decade. By the time another body comes out we will be looking well beyond 25 years since any of the pre-KA lenses have been manufactured. I really think it's time to get over it. But why should I (or anyone) care when they were made? I still use them, probably more than anything with proper metering on my camera. (Mostly not Pentax glass, so it could well be newer than that too.)

05-24-2011, 10:03 AM	#170
wll Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Mission Hills, CA Posts: 773	Originally posted by johnmflores They do. And with more megapixels than before. So if Sony can deliver a 24Mp APS-C sensor that can outperform the one in the K-5 with regards to ISO, DR, and noise, I say go for it! I agree, and if Pentax engineers find the new Sony sensor is not as good, maybe they should make upgrades to the existing body and add more features. (Like Tethering, with a good tethering program, how about a couple of pro flash units ?). I'm not to interested in a 24mp piece of cr@#. I would, love on the other hand love for the new sensor to have increased DR and another stop or ? of usable ISO range. This would be fantastic. It's all being worked on now I'm sure, we will see. wll

05-24-2011, 11:55 AM	#171
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,650	Originally posted by Ash If that were the case, there would be little need for a 24Mp APS-C camera. I get the fact that they are going to put whatever sensor is developed and made available to them, but to Pentax it's the other stuff that should matter more: AF accuracy and performance, fixing the intermittent camera software glitches and exposure reliability between lenses and with P-TTL flash. I don't mind more megapixels, although you definitely get the point of diminishing returns. Anyway, the sensor development is up to Sony (and they seem to do a pretty good job with it). I think the issues really are more QC than anything else. Camera performance really is all over the place. There seem to be high rates of lens issues as well. If they just get these things in order, it would be a step in the right direction. I'll say again, that I think they need to work more on lenses than on camera bodies right now. I feel like the K5 is a good camera body, but they need more fast lenses, both with regard to aperture and focus speed.

05-24-2011, 11:58 AM	#172
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	I am sure SanDisk and Lexar are looking forward to increased sales in 64 GH and 132 GB SDHC Extreme cards.

05-24-2011, 12:21 PM	#173
MaK5 Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Maryland Photos: Gallery Posts: 81	I hope Pentax can significantly improve K5's AF accuracy in the next camera. Having used several Nikon (D80/90/300/700) and Canon (450/550/50D) cameras, I have to say that K5's AF is the least accurate in both AF-S and AF-C modes.

05-24-2011, 12:21 PM	#174
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617 Original Poster	Originally posted by Ash If that were the case, there would be little need for a 24Mp APS-C camera. I get the fact that they are going to put whatever sensor is developed and made available to them, but to Pentax it's the other stuff that should matter more: AF accuracy and performance, fixing the intermittent camera software glitches and exposure reliability between lenses and with P-TTL flash. Actually increasing MP and maintaining S/N and DR will result in better IQ. Then there is the issue with how modern RAW converters process the information collected by the sensor. The more data points (photosites/pixels) the software has to work with the more accurately it can reproduce the actual scene. One of the reasons DxO is so slow is that when processing the data returned from a single photosite it samples a radius of photosites (I don't recall how many) around that photosite to isolate random noise and hot pixels. Take the Canon 5D and the Sony A900 as examples. The 12MP 5D and the 25MP A900 have almost identical S/N ratios, but the A900 returns better images with more detail. Noise appears as smaller/finer grain in the A900 and since the RAW converter has more information to work with it can produce more accurate images. Sony really can not afford to screw up the next sensor. They have a lot at stake. Samsung has a new 18MP sensor.... Maybe that will be at the heart of the K-5 replacement.

05-24-2011, 12:29 PM	#175
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by Winder Samsung has a new 18MP sensor.... Maybe that will be at the heart of the K-5 replacement. where is that sensor?

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05-24-2011, 01:02 PM	#176
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617 Original Poster	Originally posted by RonHendriks1966 where is that sensor? Samsung has been showing it off. The korean company is looking to export their new CMOS technology. A couple of weeks ago there was a meeting with representatives of digital camera companies. Samsung showed them their latest generation sensor. It’s a 18MPx CMOS sensor with 4K support. One of the present representatives was from Olympus. Samsung offered them a 16MPx 4/3 version with 1080p!!! Samsung is shopping it around. Samsung needs to sell to other companies to keep their manufacturing costs down. Would Pentaxians get excited about a Samsung sensor? Or would a 24MP Sony be more popular.

05-24-2011, 01:27 PM	#177
johnmflores Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Somerville, NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,361	Originally posted by Winder Samsung has been showing it off. The korean company is looking to export their new CMOS technology. A couple of weeks ago there was a meeting with representatives of digital camera companies. Samsung showed them their latest generation sensor. It’s a 18MPx CMOS sensor with 4K support. One of the present representatives was from Olympus. Samsung offered them a 16MPx 4/3 version with 1080p!!! Samsung is shopping it around. Samsung needs to sell to other companies to keep their manufacturing costs down. Would Pentaxians get excited about a Samsung sensor? Or would a 24MP Sony be more popular. 4k support? For real? Isn't that Red territory????

05-24-2011, 01:31 PM	#178
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by Winder Samsung is shopping it around. Samsung needs to sell to other companies to keep their manufacturing costs down. Would Pentaxians get excited about a Samsung sensor? Or would a 24MP Sony be more popular. well developingcosts is the problem these days. They still use the sensor from K20D/K-7 in their current NX camera with some tweaking. It was a pitty that the Pentax camera's didn't make the sellingnumbers needed for upgrading. I still like the colours of the K20D/K-7 over the Sonysensor, but it has to get close in IQ with hi iso.

05-24-2011, 01:49 PM	#179
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617 Original Poster	Originally posted by johnmflores 4k support? For real? Isn't that Red territory???? I'm not sure I buy the part about 4K support. This was from an Olympus forum, but everyone know Olympus is tired of waiting on Panasonic and is looking for a new supplier. Panasonic "can" make good sensors (see GH1), but they can never seem to get very high yields, and have trouble making enough sensors to meet demand. I don't see the value of 4K support. To my knowledge there is no real 4K industry standard and the bandwidth requirement is huge. IF you did shoot in 4K where do you show your videos? Samsung has been investing a lot into their sensor development. The Samsung sensor in the K20 was very good at the time it was introduced, but it seems Samsung took some time off from sensor development with the K-7. The NX20 is rumored to be out this year (the NX11 will have s short market life) and Samsung needs to have a sensor that is competitive. Right now the NEX system is kicking butt in the mirror-less segment.. I actually like the size and feel of the NX10. It is a first generation camera and it has the first generation bugs. I am hoping Pentax produces something like the NX10 series or the follow the Fuji x100.

05-24-2011, 02:19 PM	#180
uccemebug Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 962	Originally posted by Winder The NX20 is rumored to be out this year (the NX11 will have s short market life) That is short! Originally posted by Winder I am hoping Pentax produces something like the NX10 series The NX series is quite good and worth bearing in mind. I wonder if Pentax could stake out a space making something with a bit more W90 DNA in there.