K-3 speculation

ofer4 · 09-18-2013, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by wed7

I'm guessing :-) 20MP, Pentax in front, Ricoh at the back. What do you think?

Would this be a DSLR mullet?

**Belnan** · 09-18-2013, 08:28 PM

If Pentax could squeeze an extra 1/2 stop in the noise department over the K-5, then a 20 mp sensor sans AA would be pretty nice. I might even be convinced that I dont want a full frame camera after all. I really enjoy all of this speculation, especially in a "please dont speculate here" section of the forum. I think Uluru is correct, we are going a bit nutty, in a healthy and positive way. Maybe there is hope still.

**PJ1** · 09-18-2013, 08:49 PM

But great expectations often precede great disappointments. Maybe we should start a "Vent" thread in anticipation.

**Belnan** · 09-18-2013, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by PJ1

But great expectations often precede great disappointments. Maybe we should start a "Vent" thread in anticipation.

True enough, but I dont think there is any shortage of venting on these forums. Someone at my workplace once suggested a no complaining policy, you can only imagine how much the complainers complained about that suggestion.

**Rorschach** · 09-18-2013, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by PJ1

But great expectations often precede great disappointments. Maybe we should start a "Vent" thread in anticipation.

Your cup is half empty? :-)

Jean Poitiers · 09-18-2013, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by PJ1

But great expectations often precede great disappointments. Maybe we should start a "Vent" thread in anticipation.

When is a thread on this forum NOT a "vent" thread ...

J

Jean Poitiers · 09-18-2013, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by Belnan

True enough, but I dont think there is any shortage of venting on these forums. Someone at my workplace once suggested a no complaining policy, you can only imagine how much the complainers complained about that suggestion.

If someone in France made this type of suggestion, then they would be tarred and feathered on the spot ... complaining in France, like many other places, is a national and cultural pass-time ... c'est la vie, J

wed7 · 09-18-2013, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Winder

I think you read too much DPR.

Nope, result of a sneak peak at plant.

Kunzite · 09-19-2013, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by Uluru

Anyone noticed how, in the last few weeks, especially since September 5th disappointment, the level of user's expectations and remarkably complex ideas about future products has risen to a whole new level — and all those ideas are found to be perfectly justifiable and possible, divine plans aligning exquisitely? Not just this thread.

It's amazing. Pentaxians have never been in deeper imagination than now.

That's logical; it appears Pentax will launch an excellent high-end camera, quite soon; a clear step-up from everything else they've done.
We can't let ourselves to be impressed by that, can we? So, we're raising the bar to impossible levels. No matter what Pentax does, it would look bleak and unimaginative in comparison.

Originally posted by derekkite

Why not? My story for the delay, along with the pains of joining two companies, is that the software/hardware system that Pentax has used had reached the end of it's marketable life. It takes a while when you start from scratch, even is you use existing technology. While doing that, if the design specs were a modular system, why couldn't you have a system where a larger sensor, larger buffer, quicker or slower processing, etc. is just a matter of swapping hardware. Not in the field, but in manufacturing. The end product may look different, there still are substantial parts of a camera body that is hardware implemented, but the software driving it could be very similar. Stuff we are used to in other places; extensions, addons, libraries, same stuff running on different processors with different speeds, memory, etc. Addons like wifi, or a new card technology, or tethering, or any of the neat stuff that we yearn for are simply an addon to a well designed core system.

I'm not talking about end user stuff, but from a design and manufacturing standpoint.

You are touching, but not addressing my point.
Yes, the camera will have to be redesigned as a modular system, instead of the current integrated one. There are no extension slots in a camera, no room for additional boards of any kind. Add these, and you'll get an increase in size; even if you don't install the components. For example, if you opt not to have a top LCD it would be replaced by a cover, and the body still has the shape to accommodate one.
Software is indeed another issue, and I'm not sure if the current one can properly perform hardware detection.

mecrox · 09-19-2013, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

Are you looking for Q10 / Q7?

The whole idea is to put a kiosk in every store in the USA (where there is not now ANY B&M presence to speak of) that has every single possible color combination, stock three standard colors (or later, configurations) in-store and allow customers to handle the cameras, then order through the Dealer their BTO camera. That's what they've done in New York City - why not everywhere? Why should it take weeks - it can be delivered in days.

If BTO becomes a reality it solves many pressing business issues, not the least of which is the problem of extending Dealer Credit terms to small businesses in the USA, which has remarkably borrower-friendly bankruptcy laws (see Nikon/Canon and Ritz Camera).

On my local Q colour configurator it says: "Wait for approximately 5 weeks for your camera to be specially made for you and delivered."

I'm not sure why it should be automatically assumed that Ricoh will be able to put a kiosk in all those stores where it currently does not offer physical cameras. Why would those stores want kiosks rather than cameras? And why would the store want a Ricoh kiosk when everyone else is doing kiosks as well, which they will if BTO is the no-brainer financial winner some seem to think it is? The logic here leads inexorably to online-only sales, it seems to me.

Apart from the small matter of Ricoh needing to make huge investments in back-end systems and modular hardware design, for which there doesn't seem any public evidence, you are making BTO sound as easy as falling off a log. I don't believe it is. In my country, I have to search high and low and travel for hours to find a physical selection of Ricoh items. If the same applies to a BTO kiosk, then as a customer I am no better off. BTO may make it more profitable for Ricoh to sell things but the key is making it easier for the customer to buy those things.

Cynog Ap Brychan · 09-19-2013, 01:07 AM

How about if the customisation was in the grip - say one with Wi-Fi and GPS, another with extra processing power for more fps... and so on. Hang on while I throw a bucket of cold water on my fevered imagination. Uluru is right.....

**Rorschach** · 09-19-2013, 02:32 AM

Originally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan

How about if the customisation was in the grip - say one with Wi-Fi and GPS, another with extra processing power for more fps... and so on. Hang on while I throw a bucket of cold water on my fevered imagination. Uluru is right.....

I'd rather call this a modular system than customized. If most of the modularity would be inside the grip (and perhaps also hotshoe mounted stuff like the present GPS unit), the problems of a modular system with weather sealing would suddenly go away. Pentax would merely need to design one or perhaps two weather shielded grips that would then have different optional modules that could be installed inside as needed. Finally a good use for grips, IMO! (I do not do much portraits and do not need present grips in general)

**Aristophanes** · 09-19-2013, 02:55 AM

Kiosks in stores?

So......2002.

An app.

Kunzite · 09-19-2013, 03:07 AM

Originally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan

How about if the customisation was in the grip - say one with Wi-Fi and GPS, another with extra processing power for more fps... and so on. Hang on while I throw a bucket of cold water on my fevered imagination. Uluru is right.....

The trouble is, there are only so many ways of customizing a camera which makes sense. You might want to change the sensor, but then what if the rest of the components are obsolete? WiFi and GPS modules, already done. More FPS, nope... it depends on the mirror/shutter/aperture/AF and on the sensor read-out rate (unless we're talking about power, then it's already done).
I'd say the higher end you'd go, the more sense it makes; think about a digital medium format solution which can shoot 4K movies and has upgrade-able mSata storage. But for cameras I'd buy, I don't see this working.

Cynog Ap Brychan · 09-19-2013, 03:19 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

More FPS, nope... it depends on the mirror/shutter/aperture/AF

I'm pretty sure the D800 shutter mechanism is capable of much more than 4 fps. The limiting factor seems to be the amount of data that has to be shifted and processed. I could be linked to the sensor read-out speed, as you say, but adding a second processor would probably speed things up. So would a larger, faster buffer. Not everyone needs 10 fps, but those needing it could then invest in the appropriate grip with the necessary processing boost.

And since we're dreaming, I'd like a new sports car, too.

09-18-2013, 08:28 PM	#2687
Belnan Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Nova Scotia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,090	K-3 goodness If Pentax could squeeze an extra 1/2 stop in the noise department over the K-5, then a 20 mp sensor sans AA would be pretty nice. I might even be convinced that I dont want a full frame camera after all. I really enjoy all of this speculation, especially in a "please dont speculate here" section of the forum. I think Uluru is correct, we are going a bit nutty, in a healthy and positive way. Maybe there is hope still.

09-19-2013, 01:06 AM	#2695
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by monochrome Are you looking for Q10 / Q7? The whole idea is to put a kiosk in every store in the USA (where there is not now ANY B&M presence to speak of) that has every single possible color combination, stock three standard colors (or later, configurations) in-store and allow customers to handle the cameras, then order through the Dealer their BTO camera. That's what they've done in New York City - why not everywhere? Why should it take weeks - it can be delivered in days. If BTO becomes a reality it solves many pressing business issues, not the least of which is the problem of extending Dealer Credit terms to small businesses in the USA, which has remarkably borrower-friendly bankruptcy laws (see Nikon/Canon and Ritz Camera). On my local Q colour configurator it says: "Wait for approximately 5 weeks for your camera to be specially made for you and delivered." I'm not sure why it should be automatically assumed that Ricoh will be able to put a kiosk in all those stores where it currently does not offer physical cameras. Why would those stores want kiosks rather than cameras? And why would the store want a Ricoh kiosk when everyone else is doing kiosks as well, which they will if BTO is the no-brainer financial winner some seem to think it is? The logic here leads inexorably to online-only sales, it seems to me. Apart from the small matter of Ricoh needing to make huge investments in back-end systems and modular hardware design, for which there doesn't seem any public evidence, you are making BTO sound as easy as falling off a log. I don't believe it is. In my country, I have to search high and low and travel for hours to find a physical selection of Ricoh items. If the same applies to a BTO kiosk, then as a customer I am no better off. BTO may make it more profitable for Ricoh to sell things but the key is making it easier for the customer to buy those things. Last edited by mecrox; 09-19-2013 at 01:11 AM.

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09-18-2013, 08:25 PM	#2686
ofer4 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Utah Posts: 428	Originally posted by wed7 I'm guessing :-) 20MP, Pentax in front, Ricoh at the back. What do you think? Would this be a DSLR mullet?

09-18-2013, 08:49 PM	#2688
PJ1 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Toowoomba, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,484	But great expectations often precede great disappointments. Maybe we should start a "Vent" thread in anticipation.

09-18-2013, 09:10 PM	#2689
Belnan Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Nova Scotia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,090	Originally posted by PJ1 But great expectations often precede great disappointments. Maybe we should start a "Vent" thread in anticipation. True enough, but I dont think there is any shortage of venting on these forums. Someone at my workplace once suggested a no complaining policy, you can only imagine how much the complainers complained about that suggestion.

09-18-2013, 10:18 PM	#2690
Rorschach Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Kuusamo, Finland Photos: Gallery Posts: 652	Originally posted by PJ1 But great expectations often precede great disappointments. Maybe we should start a "Vent" thread in anticipation. Your cup is half empty? :-)

09-18-2013, 10:40 PM	#2691
Jean Poitiers Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Lost in translation ... Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 18,076	Originally posted by PJ1 But great expectations often precede great disappointments. Maybe we should start a "Vent" thread in anticipation. When is a thread on this forum NOT a "vent" thread ... J

09-18-2013, 10:44 PM	#2692
Jean Poitiers Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Lost in translation ... Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 18,076	Originally posted by Belnan True enough, but I dont think there is any shortage of venting on these forums. Someone at my workplace once suggested a no complaining policy, you can only imagine how much the complainers complained about that suggestion. If someone in France made this type of suggestion, then they would be tarred and feathered on the spot ... complaining in France, like many other places, is a national and cultural pass-time ... *c'est la vie*, J

09-18-2013, 11:09 PM	#2693
wed7 Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Manila, Philippines Posts: 1,421	Originally posted by Winder I think you read too much DPR. Nope, result of a sneak peak at plant.

09-19-2013, 12:27 AM	#2694
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by Uluru Anyone noticed how, in the last few weeks, especially since September 5th disappointment, the level of user's expectations and remarkably complex ideas about future products has risen to a whole new level — and all those ideas are found to be perfectly justifiable and possible, divine plans aligning exquisitely? Not just this thread. It's amazing. Pentaxians have never been in deeper imagination than now. That's logical; it appears Pentax will launch an excellent high-end camera, quite soon; a clear step-up from everything else they've done. We can't let ourselves to be impressed by that, can we? So, we're raising the bar to impossible levels. No matter what Pentax does, it would look bleak and unimaginative in comparison. Originally posted by derekkite Why not? My story for the delay, along with the pains of joining two companies, is that the software/hardware system that Pentax has used had reached the end of it's marketable life. It takes a while when you start from scratch, even is you use existing technology. While doing that, if the design specs were a modular system, why couldn't you have a system where a larger sensor, larger buffer, quicker or slower processing, etc. is just a matter of swapping hardware. Not in the field, but in manufacturing. The end product may look different, there still are substantial parts of a camera body that is hardware implemented, but the software driving it could be very similar. Stuff we are used to in other places; extensions, addons, libraries, same stuff running on different processors with different speeds, memory, etc. Addons like wifi, or a new card technology, or tethering, or any of the neat stuff that we yearn for are simply an addon to a well designed core system. I'm not talking about end user stuff, but from a design and manufacturing standpoint. You are touching, but not addressing my point. Yes, the camera will have to be redesigned as a modular system, instead of the current integrated one. There are no extension slots in a camera, no room for additional boards of any kind. Add these, and you'll get an increase in size; even if you don't install the components. For example, if you opt not to have a top LCD it would be replaced by a cover, and the body still has the shape to accommodate one. Software is indeed another issue, and I'm not sure if the current one can properly perform hardware detection.

09-19-2013, 01:07 AM	#2696
Cynog Ap Brychan Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Gloucester Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,199	How about if the customisation was in the grip - say one with Wi-Fi and GPS, another with extra processing power for more fps... and so on. Hang on while I throw a bucket of cold water on my fevered imagination. Uluru is right.....

09-19-2013, 02:32 AM	#2697
Rorschach Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Kuusamo, Finland Photos: Gallery Posts: 652	Originally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan How about if the customisation was in the grip - say one with Wi-Fi and GPS, another with extra processing power for more fps... and so on. Hang on while I throw a bucket of cold water on my fevered imagination. Uluru is right..... I'd rather call this a modular system than customized. If most of the modularity would be inside the grip (and perhaps also hotshoe mounted stuff like the present GPS unit), the problems of a modular system with weather sealing would suddenly go away. Pentax would merely need to design one or perhaps two weather shielded grips that would then have different optional modules that could be installed inside as needed. Finally a good use for grips, IMO! (I do not do much portraits and do not need present grips in general)

09-19-2013, 02:55 AM	#2698
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Kiosks in stores? So......2002. An app.

09-19-2013, 03:07 AM	#2699
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan How about if the customisation was in the grip - say one with Wi-Fi and GPS, another with extra processing power for more fps... and so on. Hang on while I throw a bucket of cold water on my fevered imagination. Uluru is right..... The trouble is, there are only so many ways of customizing a camera which makes sense. You might want to change the sensor, but then what if the rest of the components are obsolete? WiFi and GPS modules, already done. More FPS, nope... it depends on the mirror/shutter/aperture/AF and on the sensor read-out rate (unless we're talking about power, then it's already done). I'd say the higher end you'd go, the more sense it makes; think about a digital medium format solution which can shoot 4K movies and has upgrade-able mSata storage. But for cameras I'd buy, I don't see this working.

09-19-2013, 03:19 AM	#2700
Cynog Ap Brychan Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Gloucester Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,199	Originally posted by Kunzite More FPS, nope... it depends on the mirror/shutter/aperture/AF I'm pretty sure the D800 shutter mechanism is capable of much more than 4 fps. The limiting factor seems to be the amount of data that has to be shifted and processed. I could be linked to the sensor read-out speed, as you say, but adding a second processor would probably speed things up. So would a larger, faster buffer. Not everyone needs 10 fps, but those needing it could then invest in the appropriate grip with the necessary processing boost. And since we're dreaming, I'd like a new sports car, too.