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07-21-2011, 02:18 AM   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by fikkser Quote
I've been in the middle with my k-7 for a wile but now I want an ff to use with my m42's, preferably a pentax.
Keep dreaming... if you want fullframe the nikon d700 or the canon 5D are starting to get to a reasonable price, if i were hoping for FF i would wait till the Nikon d4 and d400 are out and then i would see how the prices of the other FF cameras evolve. Hell being a 12 MP camera maybe even the d3 or d3s start to get in a reasonable price fork.

07-21-2011, 02:41 AM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
Keep dreaming... if you want fullframe the nikon d700 or the canon 5D are starting to get to a reasonable price, if i were hoping for FF i would wait till the Nikon d4 and d400 are out and then i would see how the prices of the other FF cameras evolve. Hell being a 12 MP camera maybe even the d3 or d3s start to get in a reasonable price fork.
FYI: Nikon is not the way to go if you want to use M42 lenses (or PK mount lenses, for that matter). It is possible, but only with glass adapters (which impact IQ).
07-21-2011, 03:01 AM   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
I still would be very interested to see Nikon jump to such high Mpix sensors from the only 12Mpix D300s and D700 have (right, they started changing with the D7000).


If not done in the past, anyone to launch on this forum a pentaxian pool :

"Would you buy a K-mount Pentax full-frame sensor DSLR, or EVIL ?"
You forget the D3x...it's got 24,5 MP, and reading it's reviews, some kind of djinn inside that makes the pictures "unique","astounding", and so forth (wich you should expect when buying a 6000$ camera).

It's been done a zillion times or at least there are a zillion threads about it (i'm pretty sure there are polls too).

Pentax as niche brand has no interest in trying to compete with a FF camera in the exiguous pro and rich amateur market with Canikon... They gave it a shot with a MF camera that along with the legacy glass is reasonably priced (it's cheaper than a 36 Mp digital back for the hassy for instance) that's their gamble on the pro side.
I
07-21-2011, 03:12 AM   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote

Pentax as niche brand has no interest in trying to compete with a FF camera in the exiguous pro and rich amateur market with Canikon...
I
Of course they have an interest, what company wouldn't if they could?

With their previously weak economy they would need to sell alot, and there are probably not that many potential buyers at first atleast. Now with ricoh's money, they might afford to start compete in the ff segment and that way gain customers, maybe with a loss at first. I bet they could make something like a 5d mk2 without putting too much money in to it. The 5d is no speed monster and it sells very well.

07-21-2011, 04:17 AM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Yes, and i really doubt what advantages that kind of resolution can give in APS-C format particularly, as diffraction will be seen as soon as f/8, and many lenses will be out of the game whatever aperture will be set...
I don't want to launch that FF discussion here and now. But let me make a technical comment about this widespread concern:

I basically agree -- but for different reasons!

The resolving power of a good 35mm prime lens in the center (which is then typically best at f/4 where it is already diffraction limited with about 300 lp/mm) would support a 300 MPixel FF sensor. Of course, with a zoom lens or off the center or peak aperture it would be a lot less. But lens resolution is not the main concern. That's my point. I predict FF to converge towards 100 MP and APS-C towards 35 MP.

The real limitation comes from inaccurate autofocus (which dramatically improves with sensor size -- I wrote about this and it is the main effect why larger systems typically deliver sharper images), from remaining shake and not enough light entering a (smaller) front lens to support short and blur-free images. If you combine all factors, the required sensor size to support a given resolution grows by a high power. Not so much for studio work where light is under control though. OTOH, studio work and sunny landscapes are a market too.
07-21-2011, 08:57 AM   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by fikkser Quote
. I don't understand why the k-5 must keep it's too high price when it's more or less a pimped up k-7, and I think it's very hyped by believing and worshiping pentaxians.
One of the ironies of modern pp software, is you have all these wonderful controls like contrast, fill, exposure, brightening, etc., but if you use them more than a little bit, the image starts going south with noise. I can tell the difference between files produced by the 16 megapixel exemor sensor (in the K5 or D7000-and i've worked a lot on both) and any other Pentax dslr files just from how it reacts to pp. The exmor image RAW files are a delight to work with.

So I would rephrase your above statement to: K7 was a pimped out K20, K5 is head and shoulders above any DSLR than Pentax has ever had. With my K20, i had to limit myself to 3200 iso for the sometimes dark theatre plays i shoot. with the K5, its set to 12,800 Auto iso for the same work. Terrific 2 stop iso advantage over the K7/K20.

You don't get quality components in cameras without paying for them. Among the guys i shoot with, the K5's shutter is quieter than the Canon 50D, Nikon D300s and the D7000. When i'm shooting candid backstage shots, people do not turn around and look if i'm shooting, because even in the quietest situation, you can't hear the K5 at all if one is 10 feet away from it. I'm not saying its a perfect camera, but its doing everything i wanted out of it.

Most folks seem to have forgotten the tsunami and the effects it might have on the next camera models and sensors. And who pays for the devastated factories? Customers of course. I predict greater than normal periods in bringing out the new models and a lot of sticker shock. Nothing too unusual in that prediction. I'm glad that Pentax has K5 out there and selling, we'll just have to wait and see what Ricoh wants to do with the company long term.
07-21-2011, 09:10 AM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by fikkser Quote
Now with ricoh's money, they might afford to start compete in the ff segment and that way gain customers, maybe with a loss at first. I bet they could make something like a 5d mk2 without putting too much money in to it. The 5d is no speed monster and it sells very well.
Ricoh might want to ask Sony how that's been working out for them so far...
07-21-2011, 09:50 AM   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
Ricoh might want to ask Sony how that's been working out for them so far...
Sony rolled out a very capable FF camera. The A900 is probably a better overall camera than either the D700 or the 5DII.

ONE MAJOR PROBLEM:
The Canon 5DII rolled out with HD video and changed the market. A900 had no live-view, no HD video, and the JPEGs were average at best. The RAW files from the A900 are really good when processed with DxO or LR3. Sony's software is terrible.

Sony's first generation A900 is a really good camera with a really good selection of glass. Sony needs to improve their service if they are going to attract the really serious photographers who have a need for the larger sensor.

I would love to see Pentax produce a body with a larger sensor, and I think they could sell, but the need to develop the supporting technologies and services before they jump down that path.

07-21-2011, 10:03 AM   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
You forget the D3x...it's got 24,5 MP, and reading it's reviews, some kind of djinn inside that makes the pictures "unique","astounding", and so forth (wich you should expect when buying a 6000$ camera).

It's been done a zillion times or at least there are a zillion threads about it (i'm pretty sure there are polls too).

Pentax as niche brand has no interest in trying to compete with a FF camera in the exiguous pro and rich amateur market with Canikon... They gave it a shot with a MF camera that along with the legacy glass is reasonably priced (it's cheaper than a 36 Mp digital back for the hassy for instance) that's their gamble on the pro side.
I
Yes, and no.
I voluntarily passed over D3x, as our collegue was mentionning D300 and D700 sucessors. And i dont expect Pentax to start with high resolution D3x or D4 competitor in 24x36mm, or they would endanger the 645D.

But i am convinced that if they want to compete with CaSoNikon, they will soon end with a 24x36 offer.
And the best thing they could do IMHO is to put such a sensor in an EVIL compact camera.
07-21-2011, 10:07 AM   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I don't want to launch that FF discussion here and now. But let me make a technical comment about this widespread concern:

I basically agree -- but for different reasons!

The resolving power of a good 35mm prime lens in the center (which is then typically best at f/4 where it is already diffraction limited with about 300 lp/mm) would support a 300 MPixel FF sensor. Of course, with a zoom lens or off the center or peak aperture it would be a lot less. But lens resolution is not the main concern. That's my point. I predict FF to converge towards 100 MP and APS-C towards 35 MP.

The real limitation comes from inaccurate autofocus (which dramatically improves with sensor size -- I wrote about this and it is the main effect why larger systems typically deliver sharper images), from remaining shake and not enough light entering a (smaller) front lens to support short and blur-free images. If you combine all factors, the required sensor size to support a given resolution grows by a high power. Not so much for studio work where light is under control though. OTOH, studio work and sunny landscapes are a market too.
Many thanks for this interesting technical point, and prospective view.
07-21-2011, 10:32 AM   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
But i am convinced that if they want to compete with CaSoNikon
they don't... one niche company, Ricoh (exotic lensor concept and niche compacts), buying another niche company, Pentax (not exactly a massmarket products)... so they will stay in certain niches - just in more of them being together...
07-21-2011, 12:04 PM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
You don't get quality components in cameras without paying for them. Among the guys i shoot with, the K5's shutter is quieter than the Canon 50D, Nikon D300s and the D7000. When i'm shooting candid backstage shots, people do not turn around and look if i'm shooting, because even in the quietest situation, you can't hear the K5 at all if one is 10 feet away from it. I'm not saying its a perfect camera, but its doing everything i wanted out of it.
This is still amazing. I was last saturday at an event where a friend of my was too with her Nikon D5000 and that is one shouting animal! I set my K-5 to liveview and rattled some pictures in Hi-speed and she was amazed about how quiet my camera was!
07-21-2011, 02:41 PM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The real limitation comes from inaccurate autofocus (which dramatically improves with sensor size -- I wrote about this and it is the main effect why larger systems typically deliver sharper images), from remaining shake and not enough light entering a (smaller) front lens to support short and blur-free images. If you combine all factors, the required sensor size to support a given resolution grows by a high power. Not so much for studio work where light is under control though. OTOH, studio work and sunny landscapes are a market too.
99% of all images have quite an extensive DOF. Where the focus point is within a bracket of cm-scale is unimportant. This is way within current AF, not to mention manual focus.
07-21-2011, 02:45 PM   #164
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Sony rolled out a very capable FF camera. The A900 is probably a better overall camera than either the D700 or the 5DII.

ONE MAJOR PROBLEM:
The Canon 5DII rolled out with HD video and changed the market. A900 had no live-view, no HD video, and the JPEGs were average at best. The RAW files from the A900 are really good when processed with DxO or LR3. Sony's software is terrible..
Actually, the main problem is that very few people want or buy FF cameras. Image quality from APS sensor satisfies the need of about 95% of the market and the image quality of this sensor size is only going to get better. This and the price penalty of FF, particularly the lenses, will ensure that the FF will probably never exceed 10% of the DSLR market. If anything there will be a trend towards smaller sensors in the majority of the market. There will still be a market for larger sensors but it will remain small...
07-21-2011, 03:10 PM   #165
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Yes, and no.
I voluntarily passed over D3x, as our collegue was mentionning D300 and D700 sucessors. And i dont expect Pentax to start with high resolution D3x or D4 competitor in 24x36mm, or they would endanger the 645D.

But i am convinced that if they want to compete with CaSoNikon, they will soon end with a 24x36 offer.
And the best thing they could do IMHO is to put such a sensor in an EVIL compact camera.
I consider both an EVIL (already in Pentax Q) and a FF model to be good moves for Pentax, but I don't see the FF camera taking away from 645D sales the way you do.

To me it would be no more than thinking good P&S models hindering Q sales. In fact I think FF is an investment that would boost overall sales for Pentax given the interest in utilising fine FF glass already available (and can easily be reproduced in DFA format from their formularies). Potential FF buyers are not in the market for a 645D, and I'd be interested to see how many MF Pentaxians would be happy to settle for FF...
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