[Zygonyx]

... I have found that the weight of a larger camera is forgotten when I am excited about the IQ of the photos it takes. For the record, I am female, 5'2'' tall and have small hands.

Agreed, hence my choice to shoot with 645D in addition to K-5, getting the best of both worlds.
But i am still a 24x36 supporter.

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Last edited by Zygonyx; 07-29-2011 at 04:58 AM.

[falconeye]

the dominant evidence is provided by Sony's issuance of the A850 and its sudden non-existence.

What are you talking about?
I must have missed this ...

I see A850 and A900 on Sony Global - Digital SLR Cameras
I see it available in shops as well. It's discontinued at B&H and there was a corresponding rumor in May. So, I guess we see old stock. Probably high enough to deliver well into 2012.

But the more logical reasoning would be that Sony halted production in preparation for the follow-up models. And that's exactly what the rumor mills say too ... New Sony FF in 2012. One link for such rumors is here: -> sonyalpharumors | Blog | (SR3) 36 Megapixel sensor for one of the fullframe prototypes

[Samsungian]

Sony A900 is not listed as "discontinued" at B&H.
A900 remains buyable for $2,699, here's its link:

Sony Alpha DSLR-A900 SLR Digital Camera (Body Only) DSLR-A900

[Aristophanes]

It is highly unusual to withdraw completely from a price point without a successor in the wings and the flagship model coasting on 6 year-old tech and specs. That's foregoing 4Q revenues. Sony has said less about it's FF offerings than Pentax. Sony cuts back FF and then offers NEX and SLT APS-C systems, while Nikon uses the Sony FF fab to pump out the D3 and D700, and prepare for the successors. Industry read is that there is limited FF demand and Nikon makes Sony more $$ from FF than Sony can make itself. Both supply and demand are constrained.

Is Pentax in a position to capitalize a new fab through it's potential sales volume? I doubt it. And I doubt Ricoh will do that as well. The whole prospect of the DSLR is in question, so even the accompanying lens mount and optics is in flux. The demand for $2,500 FF bodies is very constrained. If Pentax's FF market share is proportionate to it's APS-C line, then FF cannot sell in enough volume to be profitable. Pentax/Ricoh needs to wait until FF sensor costs drop.

[eddie1960]

Like Falk I see the 850 and 900 for sale, Sony Canada still has both available. production may well be stopped early so inventories can sell through without stupid levels of discounting which is a valid idea. In all the years i spent in Retail Sony was actually quite good at this on their Halo products and occasionally there would be a gap in the lines as they may have underestimate demand.
until the new FF product comes to market later this year early next we probably won't know Sony's real plan for FF but there certainly have been rumours of enough variants.
As for Nikon having a lock down deal on the sensors, while it's possible it's more likely that they have a negotiated window of exclusivity on new launches not anything more. (until the K5 sensor this actually seems to have been the reality)
Nikon FX availability has been pretty constrained all year and i'm guessing they to have taken this path preparing for launch of D800 etc in the fall. Reality is deep discounting at the end of the product run on halo product is not good for the overall brand image at the high end
some discounting will happen but by controlling the supply tightly you limit it. this is better for both the dealer network and the manufacturer. Full Frame product is not a mass market commodity product and as such has different marketing strategy behind it (on the flip side Nikon keeps old models around forever milking volume through low prices as a commodity, mostly byy the standards of the newer stuff these are pretty poor cameras but getting people to buy into the brand at that level get's them locked in in the long term as they move up the line - not all people will of course but it is a smart strategy. Same reason I always say the Kx should still be in production

[Blue]

My only local B&M is getting back into carrying an slr, they are a Sony dealer exclusively. This doesn't sound like Sony plans to dump it. 2 years ago they quit selling dSLRs all together. They were a Canon/Nikon dealer.

[Aristophanes]

I phoned Sony Canada. There is no stock of the A850, nor none expected, even for an insurance claim.

There is no announced model to replace it at that price point. They referred me to the A900. It was strongly hinted to me not to wait on getting an A900 and that I would die before the A850 came into stock again.

B&H says discontinued; Adorama backordered (since April apparently), none at Amazon, and none in stock pretty much anywhere in North America. This implies that Sony took down a price-competitive FF from the market just in time for summer sales.

Remember, this is a camera that caused a big stir precisely because of its pricing. So those looking for a less costly FF are dreaming as Sony could not make sales at the $2,000 price point work. And Sony has a vertically integrated system, a large legacy market from Minolta, (beercans; and larger than any Pentax legacy market), as well as marketing and distribution muscle.

Obviously there is some exclusivity for FF production between Nikon and Sony. How that is constructed is speculation, but the #3 in the market does not give up its semi-pro/prosumer segment with no replacement unless there is a reason.

Even if Pentax wanted an FF sensor from Sony, I doubt Pentax/Ricoh could pre-order enough to justify taking fab time from Nikon and its volumes, and Pentax has no competitive lenses.

We are years away from a Pentax FF given the market average turnover of FF product development.

P.S. I did this after trying to order an A850 directly from the Sony store. They would not process my order and I had to phone.

[eddie1960]

I phoned Sony Canada. There is no stock of the A850, nor none expected, even for an insurance claim.

There is no announced model to replace it at that price point. They referred me to the A900. It was strongly hinted to me not to wait on getting an A900 and that I would die before the A850 came into stock again.

B&H says discontinued; Adorama backordered (since April apparently), none at Amazon, and none in stock pretty much anywhere in North America. This implies that Sony took down a price-competitive FF from the market just in time for summer sales.

Remember, this is a camera that caused a big stir precisely because of its pricing. So those looking for a less costly FF are dreaming as Sony could not make sales at the $2,000 price point work. And Sony has a vertically integrated system, a large legacy market from Minolta, (beercans; and larger than any Pentax legacy market), as well as marketing and distribution muscle.

Obviously there is some exclusivity for FF production between Nikon and Sony. How that is constructed is speculation, but the #3 in the market does not give up its semi-pro/prosumer segment with no replacement unless there is a reason.

Even if Pentax wanted an FF sensor from Sony, I doubt Pentax/Ricoh could pre-order enough to justify taking fab time from Nikon and its volumes, and Pentax has no competitive lenses.

We are years away from a Pentax FF given the market average turnover of FF product development.

P.S. I did this after trying to order an A850 directly from the Sony store. They would not process my order and I had to phone.

Try Calling Aden Camera they show it as in stock at $2149 down from the CDN retail of 2499
Aden Camera

Edit - BTW it is near impossible to buy a Nikon FF at the moment despite the fact that production has supposedly resumed a while back not just the Sony, it may well have something to do with that sensor run having been consumed and the new sensor stream coming on-stream to soon to make an old sensor run viable
I can tell you that all the line level people you talk to at Sony would not know what is coming down the pike until it is very close to announcement. unless you were talking with Senior Marketing or Supply chain people they would be almost as in the dark as the rest of us

[Asahiflex]

If I may talk about myself then my personal reaction would be: who in their right state of mind would want to own a Sony DSLR? It is because of the name; they will never sound "pro" to me as in my mind they are still a TV set/video camera maker. The name also left a bad taste in my mouth because of the famous rootkit fiasco and the Playstation Network which was hacked.

A brand name can make or break a product...

[eddie1960]

If I may talk about myself then my personal reaction would be: who in their right state of mind would want to own a Sony DSLR? It is because of the name; they will never sound "pro" to me as in my mind they are still a TV set/video camera maker. The name also left a bad taste in my mouth because of the famous rootkit fiasco and the Playstation Network which was hacked.

A brand name can make or break a product...

I would agree, if Sony had managed to buy the rights to market Minolta Cameras rather than just the mount I think they may well have done better in the high end
at the low end it would have been a simple thing to cross brand Sony and Minolta
I don't know whether they had any option in the matter, but if they did and they just did it this way because it was cheaper than I think that was a huge error on their part

[froeschle]

Nikon needs a new sensor for the upcoming D4x. According to rumors, they again will use a Sony product (see Thom Hogan's comments on the a900 vs. the D3x, e.g.: "Nikon used Sony sensors with little or no modification for: D100, D40, D50, D60, D70/D70s, D80, D90, D200, D300/D300s, D3000, D5000, D5100, D7000, D3x."). If such a sensor will appear, why should Sony not use it (with little to no extra cost) in their own FF or even also sell it to Pentax (making more profit)? Sony already supplied Nikon and Pentax with the same sensor (in the D7000 and the K-5). Is 2012 finally the year of the first FF-DSLR camera - after more than 10 years of waiting since the announcement of the MZ-D/K-1? All hope lies within Ricoh...

sonyalpharumors | Blog | (SR4) Sony testing various fullframe prototypes. Nikon DX3 competitor coming (with built-in grip)
sonyalpharumors | Blog | (SR4) Nikon D4 uses a new Sony sensor!

BTW: http://photoscala.de/Artikel/Hoya-grenzt-Pentax-schon-aus
http://www.hoya.co.jp/english/investor/d0h4dj0000001g77-att/d0h4dj0000001g7j.pdf

[Anton Magus]

/rant Many people actually shy away from Pentax because the lower price for features. They feel there must be a problem with Pentax cameras to be sold at the prices they are. Pentax's entry level dSLR (K-r), is more expensive than the entry level dSLRs from Canon (XS) and Nikon (D3000). But in features, the Pentax K-r compares closer to their mid-range models, Canon 550D/600D and Nikon D5100, and still costs much less.

I agree with you that the Pentax "Entry Level" K-r is, feature for feature, better than the entry level DSLRs from Canon or Nikon and represents excellent value. My argument is more along the lines that the K-r is not an "entry level" camera at its price point. Pentax doesn't have a DSLR to compete in the same price range as the cheapest Canon or Nikon DSLRs.

As eddie1960 so aptly said:

eddie1960: Nikon keeps old models around forever milking volume through low prices as a commodity, mostly byy the standards of the newer stuff these are pretty poor cameras but getting people to buy into the brand at that level get's them locked in in the long term as they move up the line - not all people will of course but it is a smart strategy. Same reason I always say the Kx should still be in production

I have many times come across people who have just upgraded from P&S and bought their first DSLR. In the vast majority of cases that first DSLR is either a Nikon D3100 (or a Canon 1100D) sold with usually two zoom kit lenses, 18-55VR plus 55-200VR, (or 18-55IS and 75-300IS for Canon 1100D) a pretty nice bag and a free SD Card and a free course of photography lessons for our local equivalent of under $1000. In South Africa you can't get a K-r with one lens for anything close to that. In fact you are looking close to $1600 for the K-r and one 18-55 kit lens. No bag, No SD Card, No photography course...

The images they get are much better than their old P&S and they are delighted with their purchase. If you ask why they chose Nikon (or Canon) they reply that they have seen pictures taken by experienced/professional photographers who used Nikon (or Canon), that the Nikon (or Canon) brand is synonymous with quality cameras, and that the guy in the store gave them a deal they couldn't refuse. They may even have looked at the Pentax K-r and even agree its a better camera "but it was just way too expensive for what we wanted..."

Over the next few years they maybe buy some more lenses and perhaps a flash and then decide they want to upgrade to a better camera. Usually by now they know pretty much what they want in terms of specifications or performance, but they are certainly not going to replace their lenses and other accessories. So it is then a no-brainer that they buy another Nikon (or Canon). And let's put our prejudice aside for a moment and admit that Nikon and Canon do make some pretty good cameras and have a huge range of lenses and accessories compared to Pentax.

Pentax just has to be able to offer something competitive at that entry level price point because if they lose the customer there, they have pretty much lost him/her forever. I truly believe that Ricoh fully understands this and will make it a priority to plug that gap in the Pentax price range.

[Philoslothical]

I doubt that small markets like SA are a huge concern for Pentax. When you talk about the extreme prices there, that isn't about the camera cost, it's about import and marketplace factors that Pentax has little control over. When larger markets like U.S./Canada and Europe can order a K-r with a kit lens online for $550 or buy one in a shop for $600 ($700 for a two lens kit), it IS competitive. The best local price I could find on the Canon T3i with 50-250mm lens was between $1100 and $1200. Nearly double. That makes the K-r, with its feature set, Very competitive in my eyes.

My entire kit so far (in less than 2 months), new K-r body with 18-55mm, a used Pentax A 50mm, a used Sigma 28-200mm, and a new Sigma 70-300mm with macro, combined, is still a bit cheaper than a T2i with the 50-250mm kit lens, and (obviously) cheaper yet than a T3i with the same lens. I'm comparing to brick and mortar prices local to me, which is how I bought my camera and the new zoom lens.

Bottom line, if Pentax were jacking up their msrp for countries like SA, then your point would hold more water (although buying online is still an option, isn't it?). Can't really blame Pentax for the companies importing, distributing and selling them tho, especially if they're biased towards Canikon. I do understand and empathize with your frustration, though. $1600 is just insane.

[Blue]

. . . And Sony has a vertically integrated system, a large legacy market from Minolta, (beercans; and larger than any Pentax legacy market), as well as marketing and distribution muscle.

. . .

I am not so sure about the 'Legacy' market being better for Sony than Pentax given the fact that the Maxxum mount orphaned all the MD/MC lenses.

[RonHendriks1966]

If such a sensor will appear, why should Sony not use it (with little to no extra cost) in their own FF or even also sell it to Pentax (making more profit)? Sony already supplied Nikon and Pentax with the same sensor (in the D7000 and the K-5). Is 2012 finally the year of the first FF-DSLR camera - after more than 10 years of waiting since the announcement of the MZ-D/K-1? All hope lies within Ricoh...

Time for us to jump around (again)