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07-16-2011, 11:00 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
That concept form 1997 is not slightly thicker than the sony NEX cameras. Is a lot more bulkier.

If what this rumors is about is true, I guess they will go with a classic reflex camera design, a very narrow body with a protruding box (or cylinder) that put the bayonet at the right working distance. New lenses created for the camera, that not need the clearance for the mirror, could be simply recessing lens, with most of the optics protruding inside the camera.

Like a L rear converter.
It's sad they sell those A rear converters brand new on the Pentax US website, they look so ancient and outdated --- actually they are!

07-17-2011, 07:00 AM   #32
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If Pentax's 2nd EVIL is going to look like a NEX, here is a picture of the new NEX-C3 with a Pentax FA77 Limited mounted on it. BTW, the "peaking" manual focus aid works brilliantly with Pentax primes and it has the same Sony sensor as the K5, albeit limited to ISO 200.

07-17-2011, 07:41 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by tsammyc Quote
If Pentax's 2nd EVIL is going to look like a NEX, here is a picture of the new NEX-C3 with a Pentax FA77 Limited mounted on it.
That just looks silly. I honestly think M-mount lenses are a better fit for a vast majority of the mirrorless cameras.
07-17-2011, 08:19 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by ewalk Quote
That just looks silly. I honestly think M-mount lenses are a better fit for a vast majority of the mirrorless cameras.
I used nothing but my old K-Mount glass with my NEX-3 until I sold it (had no choice since Sony's NEX lenses are awful), I can't argue with the results I got, but using that set up does make you realize how silly it is to carry on the k-mount to the mirrorless world. An APS-C mirrorless camera simply doesn't need a registration distance that deep and wide so there is no reason to keep it aside for the sake of legacy users. I personally think it would be a huge mistake to keep the k-mount. Doing so may make a few of Pentax's current users happy, but I couldn't imagine choosing a Pentax camera that is almost twice as thick over a Sony NEX if I were a new customer (well, after Sony see's fit to make some lenses). Even as someone that owns Pentax's lenses I'd still prefer they scrap it and just make a nice adapter.

07-17-2011, 09:37 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by tsammyc Quote
If Pentax's 2nd EVIL is going to look like a NEX, here is a picture of the new NEX-C3 with a Pentax FA77 Limited mounted on it. BTW, the "peaking" manual focus aid works brilliantly with Pentax primes and it has the same Sony sensor as the K5, albeit limited to ISO 200.
Good example. But the k-mount mirrorless rumors are not based on common sense and will continue...
07-17-2011, 10:22 AM   #36
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But still, we dont now if there is a K-5 sized mirrorless in the future to
07-17-2011, 11:02 AM - 1 Like   #37
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But it is really an imperative of the market that a camera should be as thick as a credit card? A camera with the form factor of a Pentax MG would still be small, very small compared to a digital reflex, and still have the K mount registration distance. Recessing lens that protrude out as much as a M 40/2,8 would make the complex camera + lens apparently smaller than a NEX with big lens.
07-17-2011, 08:38 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by ewalk Quote
That just looks silly. I honestly think M-mount lenses are a better fit for a vast majority of the mirrorless cameras.
I have to admit it does look a little silly, but it is an eminently sensible combination. The NEX-C3 shares the 16MP EXMOR Sensor with the K5 and a few Nikons & Sonys. As far as I know, no other APS-C sensor comes close in both dynamic range and high ISO noise. I have a K5, but it is at least 3 times the size of the C3/FA77 and I get very similar results. The C3/FA77 also allows me to shoot "from the hip" i.e., I hold the camera close to my body and use the articulated LCD. So far, nobody seems to notice me and my hand hides the size of the lens.

If Pentax's 2nd EVIL comes with a lesser sensor than the K5 (e.g., the KR's sensor), I might bet tempted not to sell the C3

07-18-2011, 12:31 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by sjwaldron Quote
So I heard today there is a large sensor K-mount mirrorless camera still in the works. The information comes around 3 steps down the information chain from Pentax. As I had a hard time believing it myself I'll just say it's a baseless rumor at this point.
,,,
- The existing k-mount lenses will work in a fashion. Newer lenses designed specifically for the camera will have the back element as close to the sensor as possible or use other tricks to make them extremely compact.
This information appears to be valid.

I said so in https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/129409-forthcoming-pen...ss-camera.html

I still support my half year old post. Except that things have been delayed a lot.

The key idea of the forthcoming Pentax mirrorless (not the Q) indeed seems to be a good compatibility with K mount lenses. However, at this stage I heard no claims that this wouldn't be by some kind of adapter. Too much of a detail to know about.
07-18-2011, 01:07 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
This information appears to be valid.

I said so in https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/129409-forthcoming-pen...ss-camera.html

I still support my half year old post. Except that things have been delayed a lot.

The key idea of the forthcoming Pentax mirrorless (not the Q) indeed seems to be a good compatibility with K mount lenses. However, at this stage I heard no claims that this wouldn't be by some kind of adapter. Too much of a detail to know about.
This makes sense to me, on the telephoto side, the registration distance is not a problem for lens design as it is seen for existing mirrorless (compactness is more related to the sensor size, at same focal lenth, it is much less obvious). On the contrary it is a problem when design wide angles. Allowing the lenth to receed in the mount would be a smart idea as there wouldn't be any need for retrofocus design, allowing for more compact/faster lenses.
In digital, color cast and vigneting issues don't allow to get the back too close from the sensor anyway.

IMO the real problem that camera makers face with compactness is the thickness of sensor + electronics + rear screen. If Pentax managed to deport it with a new architecture (like with the mirror discussed previously) then they have won some significant compactness for the camera as a system.
07-18-2011, 06:31 AM   #41
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Two bad for the "Limited" pancakes, if the new mount is not compatible with their screw-focus "limitation".
07-18-2011, 06:53 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
But it is really an imperative of the market that a camera should be as thick as a credit card? A camera with the form factor of a Pentax MG would still be small, very small compared to a digital reflex, and still have the K mount registration distance. Recessing lens that protrude out as much as a M 40/2,8 would make the complex camera + lens apparently smaller than a NEX with big lens.
I think thinness is rather important yes. A camera the size of a GF3 + 14mm pancake will fit in my jeans pocket, but a camera the size of the MG will not.

Besides, I don't even know if it's possible with current technology to make a digital K-Mount as small as an MG or ME Super. Between the rear LCD and the shake reduction mechanism I don't see how they could get a camera down to that size in the digital world; at least in the short term. In 10 years or so if we have paper thin LCD's and smaller, yet more powerful batteries then perhaps it will be doable.

I think Sony is doing the right thing if this rumor is true:

"Sony is ready to launch a special Alpha to E-mount adapter with built-in translucent mirror and phase detection AF system"

NEX adapter with built-in translucent mirror!

Pentax should follow suit.
07-18-2011, 07:25 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I think Sony is doing the right thing if this rumor is true:

"Sony is ready to launch a special Alpha to E-mount adapter with built-in translucent mirror and phase detection AF system"

NEX adapter with built-in translucent mirror!

Pentax should follow suit.
But then again, where is the big advantage of buying a small Nex camera going? I think it will be the size of a normal dslr almost. Not enough lenses for the Nex, not enough customers chaging systems (from alpha mount ot E). So this is nice, but to me it is also recognizing that the evil system is failing to serve the more enthousiast camera users.
07-18-2011, 07:50 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
But then again, where is the big advantage of buying a small Nex camera going? I think it will be the size of a normal dslr almost.
There's no advantage. That adapter would be for legacy k-mount users that will need a camera body if mirrorless cameras do indeed displace DSLR's. I would never use an adapter like that myself, but if someone has $4000 worth off old lenses I imagine they'd appreciate the ability to use them on mirrorless bodies if they can no longer find suitable DSLR's.

Really, this is what Olympus should be doing for their classic 4/3's users. That is the exact situation some of them are in. Tons of glass, and no camera bodies. I imagine the Olympus modular camera will be something similar to this when/if it is released.
07-18-2011, 08:09 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I think thinness is rather important yes. A camera the size of a GF3 + 14mm pancake will fit in my jeans pocket, but a camera the size of the MG will not.

Besides, I don't even know if it's possible with current technology to make a digital K-Mount as small as an MG or ME Super. Between the rear LCD and the shake reduction mechanism I don't see how they could get a camera down to that size in the digital world; at least in the short term. In 10 years or so if we have paper thin LCD's and smaller, yet more powerful batteries then perhaps it will be doable.

I think Sony is doing the right thing if this rumor is true:

"Sony is ready to launch a special Alpha to E-mount adapter with built-in translucent mirror and phase detection AF system"

NEX adapter with built-in translucent mirror!

Pentax should follow suit.
I don't know how big are your jeans, but I'm tall and not really slim, and I feel very uncomfortable to put my old Panasonic LX2 in my jean pocket. and I would feel even more uncomfortable putting my ME super even without length.

We must be reallistic, if you want a minox kind of camera, then the Q is the right paradigm. If you want to get back to the MX/ OLympus OM old manual film camera size and feel, then the reason to shoot the K-mount would be only short term.

And fortunately for us, Pentax have a tendancy to think longer term, and be very thoughfull about their length mount.

IMO, the NEXT system is ugly with "fat" lenses on slim and uncomfortable bodies. Olympus/Panasonic do it better, but they are no "I can put it in jeans" camera. They are more "I can put it in my big winter coat" cameras. And the K5 is not so far off that paradigm as well. So if Pentax manages to squeeze it a little more using a mirrorless design, the bet would be won, even with a bigger body than the competition, because:
1. The Q is there when size matters.
2. As you said the technology will allow for savings in space until the camera are the size of an Olympus OM/Pentax MX. I would bet in 5 years times as the tech that will allow this are driven by cell phone business (screen, chips, batteries)

Off course this is a matter of taste, but I think we can thank Pentax to attack the market from bigger and smaller than the competition. If the tradeoffs don't suit you, then you can go M4/3 or NEXT, but at least more choice is better.
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