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10-26-2011, 03:00 PM   #316
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Sony owns a couple of sensor fab plants. I have no idea which plant makes what sensors. I think they bought a big fab plant from Hitachi a few years ago. They have plants that do sensors for video cameras, cell phones, scientific, point and shoots, & DSLRs.
Not to mention that Sony had the design for the sensor, the mask for the litographic process, but the production can be easily relocated to any semiconductor foundry that supports the wafer size and process. In few days the chips can be made in Taiwan. CMOS is widespread technlogy...

10-27-2011, 07:48 AM   #317
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One thing that never seems to be addressed when looking at images from the A77 or the NEX-7 is that these cameras are always "ON". The sensor is constantly absorbing light and operating. This is generating heat and heat = noise. All things being equal these cameras (SLT & EVIL) will always generate more noise than traditional OVF camera. That noise is obviously amplified at higher ISO settings.

DSLR CAMERA COOLING Here is a guy who tested read noise and heat on his Canon 350D.

The images that you are seeing from the A77 represent the worst possible conditions for IQ. You have a mirror in the light path and a sensor that is always on generating heat.
11-08-2011, 05:18 PM   #318
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So what do you think about the Samsung 20mpix image sensor now?
Just Posted: Updated Samsung NX200 Studio Comparison (raw & JPEG): Digital Photography Review

I think the RAW image quality is promising.
11-08-2011, 06:15 PM   #319
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QuoteOriginally posted by elho_cid Quote
So what do you think about the Samsung 20mpix image sensor now?
Just Posted: Updated Samsung NX200 Studio Comparison (raw & JPEG): Digital Photography Review

I think the RAW image quality is promising.

not surprised. I actually mentioned that it could be slightly below the K-r or as good as the K-r. got the NX200 recently btw.

11-08-2011, 06:51 PM   #320
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QuoteOriginally posted by elho_cid Quote
So what do you think about the Samsung 20mpix image sensor now?
Just Posted: Updated Samsung NX200 Studio Comparison (raw & JPEG): Digital Photography Review

I think the RAW image quality is promising.
Looking at the ISO 3200 RAW files. It looks like the NX200 is retaining more detail than the Pentax K-5 in the printed, but it shows more color noise. The K-5 is using NR though and not really true RAW like the Samsung.

But at 6400 the K-5 looks like it is holding detail better. We are talking about really high ISO and 100% crops. At normal size I don't think you would be able to tell the difference.

The Samsung is producing 48MB files at ISO 3200 while the K-5 is producing 28MB files? I would like to see what is going on. I think Pentax can get better results out of the Samsung sensor than Samsung can.
11-08-2011, 07:00 PM   #321
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Looking at the ISO 3200 RAW files. It looks like the NX200 is retaining more detail than the Pentax K-5 in the printed, but it shows more color noise. The K-5 is using NR though and not really true RAW like the Samsung.

But at 6400 the K-5 looks like it is holding detail better. We are talking about really high ISO and 100% crops. At normal size I don't think you would be able to tell the difference.

The Samsung is producing 48MB files at ISO 3200 while the K-5 is producing 28MB files? I would like to see what is going on. I think Pentax can get better results out of the Samsung sensor than Samsung can.
I noticed that the ISO sensitivities below 3200 are less sharper than the 3200. something doesn't look right.
11-08-2011, 07:12 PM   #322
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
I noticed that the ISO sensitivities below 3200 are less sharper than the 3200. something doesn't look right.
DPR usually screws up the first 3-4 times they try to test something. Give them a week or two to figure out how to focus and use the camera.

They took ISO 400 off line because they screwed it up and had to retest. They are not doing something right with focus. The playing card is way too soft in the Samsung shot.
11-08-2011, 08:08 PM   #323
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I still would take the K5 sensor over either the Sony A77 sensor or the Samsung Nex 200. The big question in my mind is dynamic range.

Above iso 3200, the K5 seems to have more detail and seems to hold colors better.

11-08-2011, 08:49 PM   #324
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I like Samsung's colors. This rivalry between Samsung and Sony is going to yield some fantastic sensors. Pentax could go either way and tweak it into something grand. The high-ISO a77 images are disappointing but I'm sure both Pentax and Nikon will do much better with their traditional DSLRs.
Eager to see what Canon has up their sleeve for the 7D successor. Add the 7D to the DPR comparison along with the K5, a77, and NX200 and it holds its own even though it's ~2 years old.
11-08-2011, 09:49 PM   #325
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QuoteOriginally posted by MrPetkus Quote
I like Samsung's colors. This rivalry between Samsung and Sony is going to yield some fantastic sensors. Pentax could go either way and tweak it into something grand. The high-ISO a77 images are disappointing but I'm sure both Pentax and Nikon will do much better with their traditional DSLRs.
Eager to see what Canon has up their sleeve for the 7D successor. Add the 7D to the DPR comparison along with the K5, a77, and NX200 and it holds its own even though it's ~2 years old.
I personally think Canon has been holding back. Had they made the 7D sensor any better it would have been as good as the 1DIV and they would have been cannibalizing their own sales, and I think they could have done it. They only needed to make it a little better than the Nikon D300s and that is what they did.

Now the K-5 is on the market and Sony has started to challenge Canon with sensor technology. I think next year will be a really big year for Canon. With the 1DIV and APS-H out of the way Canon is free to really make the 7DII strong. Something will fill the $4,000 gap between the $3,000 5DIII and the $7,000 1DX. Maybe Canon is making room for a 3D with the same 18MP sensor as the 1DX, but in a smaller body (no grip). Canon, Sony, and Nikon will all have 3 FF cameras next year.

Remember that the A77 is a worst case when looking at potential IQ. Sony still has not caught up with the rest of the industry when it comes to image processing. Nobody else loses 1/2 a stop to SLT. Look at how much better Pentax and Nikon did with the 16MP sensor than Sony did.
11-08-2011, 11:09 PM   #326
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Looking at the ISO 3200 RAW files. It looks like the NX200 is retaining more detail than the Pentax K-5 in the printed, but it shows more color noise. The K-5 is using NR though and not really true RAW like the Samsung.
During some tests conducted with dgais, is I found no discernible IQ degradation due to NR at ISO3200 with the K-5 at 1:1. Also, if you look at the DPR samples, you'll see that the K-5 is softer than the NX200 at all sensitivities(including ISO100). And so I think this may muddle the conclusions on detail retention at higher sensitivities.

QuoteQuote:
But at 6400 the K-5 looks like it is holding detail better. We are talking about really high ISO and 100% crops. At normal size I don't think you would be able to tell the difference.
I think you're right... Pentax has done a wonderful job of optimizing RAW for detail retention and improved IQ. And I see this alot when I process ISO6400 snapshots that seem every bit as good as my D700. Having said that, I really think Pentax should include an ON/OFF function for low level NR in their next system. I can't count the number of times that I could have bypassed it to gain an edge on detail in RAW(Pentax?).

Give the latest APS-C sensor developments, it looks like the K-5 will keep its title as the one to beat in the noise performance area. And I just hope Pentax will play its cards right next round by aiming to outdo themselves rather than selling out to higher MP at the expense of a sensitivity downgrade.
11-09-2011, 06:25 AM   #327
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
During some tests conducted with dgais, is I found no discernible IQ degradation due to NR at ISO3200 with the K-5 at 1:1. Also, if you look at the DPR samples, you'll see that the K-5 is softer than the NX200 at all sensitivities(including ISO100). And so I think this may muddle the conclusions on detail retention at higher sensitivities.

I think you're right... Pentax has done a wonderful job of optimizing RAW for detail retention and improved IQ. And I see this alot when I process ISO6400 snapshots that seem every bit as good as my D700. Having said that, I really think Pentax should include an ON/OFF function for low level NR in their next system. I can't count the number of times that I could have bypassed it to gain an edge on detail in RAW(Pentax?).

Give the latest APS-C sensor developments, it looks like the K-5 will keep its title as the one to beat in the noise performance area. And I just hope Pentax will play its cards right next round by aiming to outdo themselves rather than selling out to higher MP at the expense of a sensitivity downgrade.
Neither Samsung nor Sony do a great job with image processing and both the A77 and NX200 are in permanent LiveView mode so those sensors are generating more heat/noise than a traditional camera with OVF. I'm pretty sure that if you put either the 24MP Sony or the 20MP Samsung in a Pentax or Nikon camera you would see performance equal to the the K-5/D7000.
11-09-2011, 07:30 AM   #328
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Neither Samsung nor Sony do a great job with image processing and both the A77 and NX200 are in permanent LiveView mode so those sensors are generating more heat/noise than a traditional camera with OVF. I'm pretty sure that if you put either the 24MP Sony or the 20MP Samsung in a Pentax or Nikon camera you would see performance equal to the the K-5/D7000.
if that is true and if noise is avoided thru OVF use, the Samsung sensor could be better than the Pentax. I doubt that Pentax K-5 apply High ISO NR on it's RAW since it seems that Pentax has been the sharper of the bunch (D700 and Sony equivalents) that uses the same Sony sensor.
11-09-2011, 07:33 AM   #329
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also, as far as noise is concerned, was it discussed before that the more pixels you cramped inside an APS-C sensor, the more noise the images would get? could the K-5 be any noisier if it was a 20MP sensor rather than 16MP?
11-09-2011, 07:41 AM   #330
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I'm pretty sure that if you put either the 24MP Sony or the 20MP Samsung in a Pentax or Nikon camera you would see performance equal to the the K-5/D7000.
Nex-5n high iso performance has an edge over Nex-7.
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