Pentax version of the Sony a77 coming ?

Blue · 08-26-2011, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by Emacs

This sensor density is obviously too high for the APS-C. Hope Samsung's 18Mp would be better.

The A77 IS an aps-c body.

Rupert · 08-26-2011, 10:40 AM

Makes me love my K5 even more...if that is possible?

Regards!

RonHendriks1966 · 08-26-2011, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by Rupert

Makes me love my K5 even more...if that is possible?

Regards!

surprise us with a picture of Otis, dryhumping your K-5

I wouldn't worry about the sensor lifespan.

Overhere there is a single tarif system for repairs. So big repairs always cost the same and mostly it is wise to buy a new camera.

garyk · 08-26-2011, 03:58 PM

I cannot wait to see that sensor and if im proved AF??? I actually put off selling my Sigma lenses in Pentax mount after seeing the Sony sensor technology. If AF improves for my type of use. Wow what a camera.

markac · 08-26-2011, 06:15 PM

I'm not a fan of pellicle mirrors. Pentax using that sensor with an OVF could be nice, although the early picture samples from Sony so far are quite unimpressive. Looking at pictures from Sony's old (Full Frame) A900 and comparing them to the (admittedly) pre-production shots from the SLT-A77 (both 24MP), shows the old FF camera eating the APS-C SLT for breakfast. Hopefully Sony will think long and hard about SLT before it replaces the A900. For full frame, a real glass viewfinder should still be an option.

elho_cid · 08-28-2011, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by adr1an

Have you seen the repair quotes for a new shutter mechanism ?

Yes, but maybe here it costs less than i Australia. My repairs were all quite cheap so far. All cheaper than comparable servicing in official Canon service. I haven§t yet had to repair shutter in my Pentax but for Canon it is slightly under equivalent of 300$. Repair quote for MZ-6 mirror box was about 100$ equivalent.

Originally posted by adr1an

Unless as I said you can enlighten me on evidence of such "Sensor Degradation" actually occuring ?

My first digital camera sensor already degraded so it is unusable. It was Olympus C-50. Now modern cameras are mapping the dead pixels automatically so they do not appear on picture and having 24millons of them sure helps. But still the sillicon wears out when it is under voltage. Like everything.

Christine Tham · 08-28-2011, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by elho_cid

But the shutter works correctly until the time it gets stuck. The image sensor wearing degrades the image quality. You see more and more hot pixels, more noise, more banding - all due to aging of the electronics. Shutter is quite cheap to replace but not the sensor.

The shutter on my K10D got a bit stuck after a few years and more than 60000 actuations.

I just opened the top of the body, cleaned the area around the shutter and button, and now it works again perfectly.

Zero cost.

adr1an · 08-28-2011, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by elho_cid

My first digital camera sensor already degraded so it is unusable. It was Olympus C-50. Now modern cameras are mapping the dead pixels automatically so they do not appear on picture and having 24millons of them sure helps. But still the sillicon wears out when it is under voltage.

Well like I indicated - thats not the experience I or 100,000,000's of DV Camera Users see. Just think your hypothesis through - It would mean that every DV Camera out there would self-destruct in short order... Yet as I indicated - I have a Sony DV that uses *only* the Sensor to do *anything* (i.e, it is continuously powered - something you indicated should cause it to rapidly 'wear out'). Like everything - It helps a little to understand how a CCD/CMOS Sensor works - and what Devices use them how. Your ideas about "Hot Pixels" is actually not what happens. But hey.... dont let facts stand in the way of a good hypothesis

Can you suggest how Sony or Canon or Panasonic manage to sell DV Camera's - some of which work 100% healthy for over 10 years - (and 10 years ago - they didn't have "10's of Millions of Pixels" ). DV Cameras use the same Sensor Technology.... and still work fine today....

Your Hypothesis might 'sound good' - but it just doesn't hold up in the realms of reality and how things 'actually' work. Regardless of the empirical evidence of your one camera (Which is hardly demonstrating an issue like I original asked you to point towards ) - There are 100,000,000's of DV Cameras out there working still.... with no Shutter Mechanism to begin with!

Dislike the Sony Sensor because of its IQ - Dislike the Body because of the Ergonomics - Dislike the Colours, Or Dislike the Features.... But your 'fears' around increased Sensor Degradation as a result of the Technology do not appear valid.

elho_cid · 08-28-2011, 04:05 PM

So none of the 10000000 cameras image sensors is any worse than when it was new?
I didn't try to say that extensive use of the CMOS will kill the camera before it becomes old obsolete junk. It is not likely to happen. But Sony had their problems with accumulated heat with their first APS-C liveview only camera - the R1. I'm sure the current generation is a lot better, but still I don't believe this has no impact on the IQ.

uccemebug · 08-28-2011, 07:35 PM

The sensor in my *istDS is ~five years old and has seen some ~28,000 shutter actuations. Before lightroom masks the stuck pixels an otherwise dark frame looks like a photo of the night sky - a real galaxy of bright pixels.

Jan-61 · 08-29-2011, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by adr1an

DV Camera

Are we talking about Digital Video camera's? It seems not, but...

Jan.

Philippos · 08-29-2011, 01:17 PM - **1 Like**

I have strong doudts Pentax can produce a competitive camera using the 24MPx Sony sensor.

First of all, Pentax has no processor that can handle the output of the new sensor. Even the latest of the Milbeaut processors is not powerfull enough to handle Full HD @ 60fps or a burst of 24MPx images @ 12fps (or even @ 6fps - although it's a dual core design). A change of processor architecture or a multi processor solution may require an extended logic redesign.
The compact body of the K5 may prove to be problematic in dissipating the extra heat of the new sensor (and processor).
The body of the A77 is large enough and the independent housing of the (brilliant indeed) articulating screen helps with the heat issue.
Pentax also has to find a way to be competitive in video. No control during shooting is not acceptible anymore.
Having to introduce many new features and improve the existing ones while keeping the body price below $2K seems impossible for Pentax. Other manufacturers (Nikon) can borrow technologies from existing models, but Pentax has to develop almost everything from scratch. They can do it, but I expect a price of at least $2.5K body-only. And all that for a sensor that may not be worth it.

I would very much prefer a K5 "Super" with improved functions like an "eternal" intervalometer, a NEW focusing system, and better video (720p @ 60fps), built on the current 16.1MPx Sony sensor, than a completey new camera, built from scratch.

On top of that, the A77is a really good camera. It is very responsive and fast. The camera feels solid and the lack of moving mirror gives it an extra feeling of stability when shooting. The 12fps is both a joy and a letdown, because the buffer gets full in a single second! I took some shots in a water polo game and shooting high fps is amazing since the camera keeps focusing while shooting.
The sweep panorama is a joke - I hoped it would be better than on my precious litle HV9X, but it's not. The EVF is the best that I've seen so far, but it's still nowhere near a Pentaprism.
The size is bigger than the K5 which for me is more than OK cause I am quite big - I find the K5 without the battery grip, hard to handle.
I didn't have a chance to shoot video with the A77, but the guy who was testing it told me it's quality is fantastic. And it will sell for less than $2K with a kit lens.

Honestly, if the $899 Sony A55's sensor translated to a $1.5K Pentax K5, I can't imagine what the $1.4K A77's sensor will translate in Pentax value...

joe.penn · 08-29-2011, 02:08 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Philippos

On top of that, the A77is a really good camera. It is very responsive and fast. The camera feels solid and the lack of moving mirror gives it an extra feeling of stability when shooting.

Really - its that good? I mean, how responsive is it? Is it so responsive that you actually have the camera before it has been released? If so, that is pretty responsive...

...

Kenn100D · 08-29-2011, 02:12 PM

RZ-18 Will be released in a few weeks. (Ricoh CX3 Super slimmed down) =) Anyway back to Topic. If ever Pentax release a new K it will be similar specs wise and almost same image results. Lets see Nikon D800 =)

elho_cid · 08-29-2011, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Philippos

I have strong doudts Pentax can produce a competitive camera using the 24MPx Sony sensor.

Me too, the sensor doesn't look good enough. The new Samsung sensor seems better so far and perhaps Aptina may surprise us. It is great that Pentax is not bound to any supplier and may choose the best available on the market.

08-28-2011, 02:51 PM	#98
adr1an Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canberra Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 739	Originally posted by elho_cid My first digital camera sensor already degraded so it is unusable. It was Olympus C-50. Now modern cameras are mapping the dead pixels automatically so they do not appear on picture and having 24millons of them sure helps. But still the sillicon wears out when it is under voltage. Well like I indicated - thats not the experience I or 100,000,000's of DV Camera Users see. Just think your hypothesis through - It would mean that every DV Camera out there would self-destruct in short order... Yet as I indicated - I have a Sony DV that uses only the Sensor to do anything (i.e, it is continuously powered - something you indicated should cause it to rapidly 'wear out'). Like everything - It helps a little to understand how a CCD/CMOS Sensor works - and what Devices use them how. Your ideas about "Hot Pixels" is actually not what happens. But hey.... dont let facts stand in the way of a good hypothesis Can you suggest how Sony or Canon or Panasonic manage to sell DV Camera's - some of which work 100% healthy for over 10 years - (and 10 years ago - they didn't have "10's of Millions of Pixels" ). DV Cameras use the same Sensor Technology.... and still work fine today.... Your Hypothesis might 'sound good' - but it just doesn't hold up in the realms of reality and how things 'actually' work. Regardless of the empirical evidence of your one camera (Which is hardly demonstrating an issue like I original asked you to point towards ) - There are 100,000,000's of DV Cameras out there working still.... with no Shutter Mechanism to begin with! Dislike the Sony Sensor because of its IQ - Dislike the Body because of the Ergonomics - Dislike the Colours, Or Dislike the Features.... But your 'fears' around increased Sensor Degradation as a result of the Technology do not appear valid. Last edited by adr1an; 08-28-2011 at 03:11 PM.

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08-26-2011, 10:26 AM	#91
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by Emacs This sensor density is obviously too high for the APS-C. Hope Samsung's 18Mp would be better. The A77 IS an aps-c body.

08-26-2011, 10:40 AM	#92
Rupert Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 25,123	Makes me love my K5 even more...if that is possible? Regards!

08-26-2011, 11:36 AM	#93
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by Rupert Makes me love my K5 even more...if that is possible? Regards! surprise us with a picture of Otis, dryhumping your K-5 I wouldn't worry about the sensor lifespan. Overhere there is a single tarif system for repairs. So big repairs always cost the same and mostly it is wise to buy a new camera.

08-26-2011, 03:58 PM	#94
garyk Inactive Account Join Date: Feb 2010 Photos: Gallery Posts: 488	I cannot wait to see that sensor and if im proved AF??? I actually put off selling my Sigma lenses in Pentax mount after seeing the Sony sensor technology. If AF improves for my type of use. Wow what a camera.

08-26-2011, 06:15 PM	#95
markac Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Adelaide Posts: 84	I'm not a fan of pellicle mirrors. Pentax using that sensor with an OVF could be nice, although the early picture samples from Sony so far are quite unimpressive. Looking at pictures from Sony's old (Full Frame) A900 and comparing them to the (admittedly) pre-production shots from the SLT-A77 (both 24MP), shows the old FF camera eating the APS-C SLT for breakfast. Hopefully Sony will think long and hard about SLT before it replaces the A900. For full frame, a real glass viewfinder should still be an option.

08-28-2011, 10:46 AM	#96
elho_cid Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Prague Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,199	Originally posted by adr1an Have you seen the repair quotes for a new shutter mechanism ? Yes, but maybe here it costs less than i Australia. My repairs were all quite cheap so far. All cheaper than comparable servicing in official Canon service. I haven§t yet had to repair shutter in my Pentax but for Canon it is slightly under equivalent of 300$. Repair quote for MZ-6 mirror box was about 100$ equivalent. Originally posted by adr1an Unless as I said you can enlighten me on evidence of such "Sensor Degradation" actually occuring ? My first digital camera sensor already degraded so it is unusable. It was Olympus C-50. Now modern cameras are mapping the dead pixels automatically so they do not appear on picture and having 24millons of them sure helps. But still the sillicon wears out when it is under voltage. Like everything.

08-28-2011, 01:14 PM	#97
Christine Tham Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,269	Originally posted by elho_cid But the shutter works correctly until the time it gets stuck. The image sensor wearing degrades the image quality. You see more and more hot pixels, more noise, more banding - all due to aging of the electronics. Shutter is quite cheap to replace but not the sensor. The shutter on my K10D got a bit stuck after a few years and more than 60000 actuations. I just opened the top of the body, cleaned the area around the shutter and button, and now it works again perfectly. Zero cost.

08-28-2011, 04:05 PM	#99
elho_cid Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Prague Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,199	So none of the 10000000 cameras image sensors is any worse than when it was new? I didn't try to say that extensive use of the CMOS will kill the camera before it becomes old obsolete junk. It is not likely to happen. But Sony had their problems with accumulated heat with their first APS-C liveview only camera - the R1. I'm sure the current generation is a lot better, but still I don't believe this has no impact on the IQ.

08-28-2011, 07:35 PM	#100
uccemebug Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 962	The sensor in my *istDS is ~five years old and has seen some ~28,000 shutter actuations. Before lightroom masks the stuck pixels an otherwise dark frame looks like a photo of the night sky - a real galaxy of bright pixels.

08-29-2011, 03:29 AM	#101
Jan-61 Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Amsterdam Photos: Gallery Posts: 67	Originally posted by adr1an DV Camera Are we talking about Digital Video camera's? It seems not, but... Jan.

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08-29-2011, 01:17 PM - 1 Like	#102
Philippos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Volos - Greece Posts: 178	I have strong doudts Pentax can produce a competitive camera using the 24MPx Sony sensor. First of all, Pentax has no processor that can handle the output of the new sensor. Even the latest of the Milbeaut processors is not powerfull enough to handle Full HD @ 60fps or a burst of 24MPx images @ 12fps (or even @ 6fps - although it's a dual core design). A change of processor architecture or a multi processor solution may require an extended logic redesign. The compact body of the K5 may prove to be problematic in dissipating the extra heat of the new sensor (and processor). The body of the A77 is large enough and the independent housing of the (brilliant indeed) articulating screen helps with the heat issue. Pentax also has to find a way to be competitive in video. No control during shooting is not acceptible anymore. Having to introduce many new features and improve the existing ones while keeping the body price below $2K seems impossible for Pentax. Other manufacturers (Nikon) can borrow technologies from existing models, but Pentax has to develop almost everything from scratch. They can do it, but I expect a price of at least $2.5K body-only. And all that for a sensor that may not be worth it. I would very much prefer a K5 "Super" with improved functions like an "eternal" intervalometer, a NEW focusing system, and better video (720p @ 60fps), built on the current 16.1MPx Sony sensor, than a completey new camera, built from scratch. On top of that, the A77is a really good camera. It is very responsive and fast. The camera feels solid and the lack of moving mirror gives it an extra feeling of stability when shooting. The 12fps is both a joy and a letdown, because the buffer gets full in a single second! I took some shots in a water polo game and shooting high fps is amazing since the camera keeps focusing while shooting. The sweep panorama is a joke - I hoped it would be better than on my precious litle HV9X, but it's not. The EVF is the best that I've seen so far, but it's still nowhere near a Pentaprism. The size is bigger than the K5 which for me is more than OK cause I am quite big - I find the K5 without the battery grip, hard to handle. I didn't have a chance to shoot video with the A77, but the guy who was testing it told me it's quality is fantastic. And it will sell for less than $2K with a kit lens. Honestly, if the $899 Sony A55's sensor translated to a $1.5K Pentax K5, I can't imagine what the $1.4K A77's sensor will translate in Pentax value...

08-29-2011, 02:08 PM - 1 Like	#103
joe.penn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Maryland (Right Outside Washington DC) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,902	Originally posted by Philippos On top of that, the A77is a really good camera. It is very responsive and fast. The camera feels solid and the lack of moving mirror gives it an extra feeling of stability when shooting. Really - its that good? I mean, how responsive is it? Is it so responsive that you actually have the camera before it has been released? If so, that is pretty responsive... ...

08-29-2011, 02:12 PM	#104
Kenn100D Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Paranaque City, Philippines Photos: Gallery Posts: 697	RZ-18 Will be released in a few weeks. (Ricoh CX3 Super slimmed down) =) Anyway back to Topic. If ever Pentax release a new K it will be similar specs wise and almost same image results. Lets see Nikon D800 =)

08-29-2011, 03:26 PM	#105
elho_cid Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Prague Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,199	Originally posted by Philippos I have strong doudts Pentax can produce a competitive camera using the 24MPx Sony sensor. Me too, the sensor doesn't look good enough. The new Samsung sensor seems better so far and perhaps Aptina may surprise us. It is great that Pentax is not bound to any supplier and may choose the best available on the market.